The Armour Archive

Winterfell, I'm also in northern Atlantia and interested in Cut and Thrust (I'm a recently authorized fencer). Would you be willing to compile a list of Atlantian armorers willing to make fencing helms or convert the Indian-made helms to fencing helms? Could you also compile a list of merchants *currently* selling fencing helms or *currently* taking commissions for custom helms? Compiling this information and putting it on SCA rapier websites and e-lists would be immensely helpful. Many fencers don't normally buy or make armor, so we don't know where to get helms.

I wish fencing helms could be as easy and inexpensive to get as armored fighters' bascinets-with-bargrills. But I know not all SCA armorers want to work with perf plate or to work in late-period styles.

I'm not sure why Cut and Thrust has stalled in Atlantia. I've been told by more senior fencers that the armor rules may get tweaked further and that people are waiting for the rule tweaks before committing themselves to C&T.

Flittie, you might get a better answer posting that on atlantianrapiernet instead of the armourarchive. First off, you'd get a variety of responses & views from several fighters; who might know an armorer that Winterfell doesn't. Secondly, then one person doesn't have to do all the work.

Yeah, but we're inherently cooler...

I've asked similar questions on Atlantian RapierNet, both about helms and about Cut and Thrust. It's been difficult to get enough good answers. When I asked about the Marco-Krieger conversions of costume helms, I saw both positive and negative reviews.

The information isn't necessarily for me; I'm in talks with an Archive armorer about a custom helm. However, Winterfell was passionately advocating that every fencer get a helm by the time he or she has been fighting for a year. If he's truly serious, he should help provide helm information to fellow fencers, many of whom don't make armor and don't normally interact with SCA armorers.

This arguement come about about a year ago here.
There were several sites that were posted that supplied fencing helms and/or instructions on conversion of india helms to fencing.
I am not an armourer nor am I the sole motivator of the rapier community. At best you can buy a light helmet from Deepeeka and have it converted to a fencing helm. The armourers in general won't start making these helmets enmasse until the rapier community asks for them enmasse.

As for the rules concerning the armour requirements being tweaked in Atlantia, I don't know about that. I was the C&T marshal who codified the Atlantian rules and policy, with the great help of some very talented people. After HRM signed off on it, the entire C&T program was moved under the authority of the Rapier Marshallate. In the past year and a half I have been deeply embroiled in launching a massive project at my work, greatly diminishing my SCA activities and I have not heard anything more concerning C&T in Atlantia.

I agree that the armorers won't mass-produce fencing helms until fencers start asking for them en masse. Unfortunately, fencers won't ask for them en masse until they're more widely available. It's a conundrum. Getting the mass-market armorers to at least offer burgonets, morions, and cabassets that could be offered in lighter gauges and with perf-plate visors instead of bargrills would be a big step in the right direction. I think it depends on the popularity of Cut and Thrust. Helms are purely optional for regular rapier, and they're much harder to find and more expensive than standard fencing masks. They're effectively mandatory for Cut and Thrust, so if more fencers were interested in doing Cut and Thrust, there would be more demand. There would be more interest in Cut and Thrust, at least in Atlantia, if there were more opportunities for it and more promotion of it.

Ice falcon offers an off the shelf fencing helm.

Windrose will make per plate helms.

Patrick Thaden did per plate face helms

Infact I would imagine alot of armourers would be willing to put a perf plate on any number of different kinds of helms.

I know it's not a period look but there is Terry's work:
http://thatguysproducts.com/index.html

I do have hopes for more period styled helms with perf in the future.

Duke Maelgwyn at Strawberry Fields Armory has expressed an interest in doing more of these, as well.

I am unsure on the rules but would it be possible and legal to take a bassinet with a removeable visor and add a perf-metal visor as well?

Sean

Sean Powell wrote:I am unsure on the rules but would it be possible and legal to take a bassinet with a removeable visor and add a perf-metal visor as well?

Sean

It certainly would.
And it would be most excellent with simply an aventail, and a stout aketon/gambeson and gauntlets for such things as a longsword bout. For those more safety conscious a good haubergeon (15 lbs or so) would up the safety factor without hindering mobility much.

LeeC wrote:I know it's not a period look but there is Terry's work:
http://thatguysproducts.com/index.html

I do have hopes for more period styled helms with perf in the future.

IMHO, even though his stuff is not period, it IS a huge step in the right direction in appearance. His stuff at least LOOKS like it could have been used. VERY much more so than the modern 3 weapons masks.

I'm finally on The List, but I find that Terry's products are pretty good overall.

For regular fencing, if gives the correct profile of a head...which is all you should have anyway. Not many folks were wearing burgonets and morions on their night about town.

For C&T, it's still situational, but...yeah. They're still better than a 3W mask and a hardened leather cover, which is what I'm fencing in. (Even if the hardened leather cover is shaped sort of like a burgonet.)

Thanks for the suggestions. Personally, I've been talking to a local armorer about a custom helm because I don't like the current limited choices. Those choices have also decreased recently. Patrick Thaden isn't taking commissions, Clang isn't taking custom orders, Illusion takes many years for his work, Icefalcon offers only stainless.

We need Ashcraft Baker to offer fencing helms.

I wish Zen Warrior Armory or Darkwood would contract with someone to provide helms.

Flittie. How many armourers have you asked to make a rapier helm?

Mad Matt?
James River?
Armourer Eric?
Windrose?
Knotwolf?
White Mountain?
Stonekeep?
Golden Boar?


Those are just to name a few.

I think this you posted earlier is very telling.

I agree that the armorers won't mass-produce fencing helms until fencers start asking for them en masse. Unfortunately, fencers won't ask for them en masse until they're more widely available.

I could be wrong, but this quote makes think that basically. It is not that there are not options for Rapier fighters only that there are no CHEAP options. If that is the case, then I seriously doubt that will ever change.

InsaneIrish wrote:

LeeC wrote:I know it's not a period look but there is Terry's work:
http://thatguysproducts.com/index.html

I do have hopes for more period styled helms with perf in the future.

IMHO, even though his stuff is not period, it IS a huge step in the right direction in appearance. His stuff at least LOOKS like it could have been used. VERY much more so than the modern 3 weapons masks.

I've been planning on getting one of Terrence's and having a "Bishop's Mantle" made to fit it. Then wearing a tellerberet over that. Just as soon as I hit that lottery and don't have to waste money on the house, the car, gas, food......

I'm making a norman spangen C&T helm for a friend, I'll post pics when it's finished.

Uadahlrich wrote:
I've been planning on getting one of Terrence's and having a "Bishop's Mantle" made to fit it. Then wearing a tellerberet over that. Just as soon as I hit that lottery and don't have to waste money on the house, the car, gas, food......

Have you seen Dweezle's set up? Much the same and looks uber spiff.

InsaneIrish wrote:Flittie. How many armourers have you asked to make a rapier helm?

Mad Matt?
James River?
Armourer Eric?
Windrose?
Knotwolf?
White Mountain?
Stonekeep?
Golden Boar?


Those are just to name a few.

I think this you posted earlier is very telling.

I agree that the armorers won't mass-produce fencing helms until fencers start asking for them en masse. Unfortunately, fencers won't ask for them en masse until they're more widely available.

I could be wrong, but this quote makes think that basically. It is not that there are not options for Rapier fighters only that there are no CHEAP options. If that is the case, then I seriously doubt that will ever change.

I am sure that at least some of those armorers do one-off custom helms for rapier. (Although Eric of James River is not making armor independently any longer, from what I gather, and I am not aware of Stonekeep doing custom work.) As I mentioned, I'm hoping to commission a rapier helm from someone local who does only custom work. It won't be cheap or quick.

It would be nice, in my opinion, for fencers to have the same options for a "standard" reasonably priced starter helm that rattan fighters do.

I ought to start a thread on the Armour forum about the economics of making fencing helms. It would be good to hear from the armorers as to what would persuade them to mass-produce fencing helms. Black Diamond Metal Arts has a relatively simple, less-expensive burgonet design on their website. I wonder if they'd be willing to license it to other armorers.

Flittie, what do you consider "standard reasonably priced" fencing helms?

Not trying to start a fight.

I see the 3 weapons masks AS the fencing equivalant of standard spun dome mass produced starter helms.

The difference is that in Rattan combat the spun dome is the newbie helm and most graduate to something nicer within 2 years of fighting. What I see in fencing is that the 3 weapons mask IS the norm and most do not bother to graduate.

I don't see a lack of resources to get nicer helms. They are out there, it all depends on whether or not people are willing to pay for them.

Okay, now I see what you mean, Irish. We're using different standards of comparison. I wasn't thinking of masks as equivalent to rattan starter helms because there are different levels of price and quality in masks. Fencers sometimes upgrade from entry-level masks to higher-quality commercial masks or even things like Terry Tindall's custom masks. The Indian-made costume helms are what I think of as entry-level fencing helms, with custom helmets being the upgrade. Marco-Krieger's the only armory I know of that's offering already-converted Indian helms.

I think an important difference is that rattan fighters upgrade *armor* and fencers upgrade *weapons.* A high-quality, snazzy-looking rapier or backsword from someplace like Darkwood Armory will be comparable in cost to a good helmet. Fencers aren't necessarily cheap; they spend money differently (swords, clothes, gloves, boots, hats) than rattan fighters do.

So, what would be a good price point for a fencing helm?

Not a custom job from Patrick Thaden. But, say, maybe a simple cevelliere with perforated face and solid back plate? Something a fencer could add a bit of chainmaille or leather drape to and put a hat on?

Well, I dropped money on a new mask, new fencing armor, and new blades, probably to the tune of over a thousand dallars this past year. I probaly have more invested in my fencing gear than I do my heavy armor, even with having a WMA Kettle Helm.

I have spoken with a number of armorers out there that there is a demand for a well made fencing helm, but I'm not about to commission one, since we all know horror stories of armourers taking commissions and then disappearing. If I can see it, try it on, I might be willing to puchase one.

Now, my mask is still a mask, as I see no reason to replace one anachronistic item with another, that being a fencing helm. I'd rather trust me head to a well made mask over a one off from an armourer who doesn't regularly make fencing helms.

InsaneIrish wrote:So, what would be a good price point for a fencing helm?

Not a custom job from Patrick Thaden. But, say, maybe a simple cevelliere with perforated face and solid back plate? Something a fencer could add a bit of chainmaille or leather drape to and put a hat on?

Somethign in the $150 to $200 range would do well. The one problem I have seen with helms made for rapier is that they gap under the chin. WHile this is not so bad in a heavy helm, in rapier, the rules do not allow for any exposed skin. With a mask this is accomplished by the bib. I have yet to see a helm constucted in such a way as to minimize this, without the use of a full bevor.

Owynn Greenwood wrote:

InsaneIrish wrote:So, what would be a good price point for a fencing helm?

Not a custom job from Patrick Thaden. But, say, maybe a simple cevelliere with perforated face and solid back plate? Something a fencer could add a bit of chainmaille or leather drape to and put a hat on?

Somethign in the $150 to $200 range would do well. The one problem I have seen with helms made for rapier is that they gap under the chin. WHile this is not so bad in a heavy helm, in rapier, the rules do not allow for any exposed skin. With a mask this is accomplished by the bib. I have yet to see a helm constucted in such a way as to minimize this, without the use of a full bevor.

Let me try to get some pics of the bascinet I fixed up for C&T. Kenwrec Wulf (on the Archive) shaped up a side-hinged klappvisor-shaped faceplate for me, that I had to tweak a little more then add appropriate additional protection for under the chin. It is what I wore in the "full-harness cut-and-thrust" video.

Kevin O'Shaughnessy

Owynn Greenwood wrote: I have yet to see a helm constucted in such a way as to minimize this, without the use of a full bevor.

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=86119

and

http://mailmaker.tripod.com/

click
German renaissance/Landsknecht costuming
then click
armor at the bottom of the page
then click
the simple fencing helm at the top of the page


Now, personally seeing a list full of simple pot helms with hats on them would look A LOT better than a list full of hooded fighters. Just my .02 cents

The first link looks like a 3weapons mask with a hat on it. (kind a silly looking to me)

The second I can see exposed skin above the gorget at the side of the neck, wont pass my inspection.

a simple solution is an aventail of puncture resistant material, or a close helm or burgonet that incorporate the gorget into the helm. I've used both and prefer the close helm as it's more comfy than a helm and gorget combo.

InsaneIrish wrote:

Uadahlrich wrote:
I've been planning on getting one of Terrence's and having a "Bishop's Mantle" made to fit it. Then wearing a tellerberet over that. Just as soon as I hit that lottery and don't have to waste money on the house, the car, gas, food......

Have you seen Dweezle's set up? Much the same and looks uber spiff.

Yes! Dweezle's kit is fantastic!

AaronCarter wrote:The first link looks like a 3weapons mask with a hat on it. (kind a silly looking to me)

The second I can see exposed skin above the gorget at the side of the neck, wont pass my inspection.

If you read the captioning Dweezle says that he's not wearing his entire fencing armor kit so there is some exposed flesh.