The Armour Archive

[quote="D. Sebastian"]I've used nylon strapping, strapping tape, a suede colar and compinations of the same./quote]

I use a 1" deep suede cup with 8 3" tails off the rim. Each tail has a trailer of nylon string about 10" long. These get spiral taped to the rattan with strapping tape. I've never had one come off since the LPTTs came in.

We need to get the pad and foam off of all the weapons.

This forces the fighter to generate more power and lets a safety rule give the unpadded group an advantage.

I'm for no-thrusting tips. It will make a thrust feel right.

-Aaron

I don't see it being any more of a training issue than regular training is now. Most of the hardest hits I've taken per person have been from newbies just starting out. The ones that think they have to swing for the bleachers, before they learn proper body mechanics and how it all works in providing sufficient force.

I’ve had to knock people clean to the ground to accept a good blow. It happened twice this weekend. The first couple of shots were not even felt. The one that was good knocked the helmet clean off, after he hit the ground.

That’s a safety violation that happens DUE to the padding in weapons.

If the pollaxe landed like a normal sword, it would be a different game and I could “fenceâ€

Now there are experiments with Extreamely Low Profile Thrusting Tips and even thrusting with no padding at all.

Why? What is the impetus behind these?

My guess is people got tired of having to thrust 3-4 times anywhere but the face before a person realized they were being struck then having the 5th one called light?

BINGO!!

A thurst should be felt, easily.

Otherwise it's just taking advantage of safety measures to win.

I'd go for 1.25 tips, covered with a PVC cap to avoid splinters.

It still doesn't have the slim diameter of the real thing, but it would level the playing field a bit.

And with a solid-rattan pollaxe, I could beat away shields instead of being beaten by them.

-Aaron

Man, seems to me that if you have to hit someone that hard to get them to take a shot, the weapon isn't the problem. The guy taking the shot is.

AND you would be encouraging "sticks" instead of weapons that look like weapons (pole axes), right?

There is a difference between changing a weapon for the purpose of improving the game (weapon behaviour, etc.) and making it an arms race.

Weapon, combat and armor standards are (and should) be designed with the AVERAGE SCA combatant (as far as equipment, participation, skill, etc) in mind.



[quote="Aaron"]I’ve had to knock people clean to the ground to accept a good blow. It happened twice this weekend. The first couple of shots were not even felt. The one that was good knocked the helmet clean off, after he hit the ground.

That’s a safety violation that happens DUE to the padding in weapons.

If the pollaxe landed like a normal sword, it would be a different game and I could “fenceâ€

Keep in mind Aaron, that the most effective way to thrust is not effective in SCA combat. Also, thrusting is by far the least issue with great weapons and SCA rulesset.
Imagine the joy you would feel if you could cut someone down at the calf with your cleaver.......

I have run a low profile thrusting tip since I started using S&B, about 3 years. I am using about 3/4" of foam, as our rules require 1/2" of progressive give (SCA minimums IIRC). I cut my tips at around 40mm (an old casing for a teargas canister).

The type of foam is of paramount importance IMO. I have foam that runs from nice stout neoprene foam that doesn't break down, to stuff that is so light, that you can't really feel any sort of resistance when you compress it. Currently, I use kayak seat foam as the base (1/2 inch of it) with a lighter foam that compresses easier.

For the Extra low profile thrusting tip, I believe (from what I saw from Westies that were using them) that they are the same diameter, but a thinner material. I think that this can be workable, once again, depending on the foam.

Caveat here is that the first thing I saw with either the extra low, or no thrusting tip, was a cut nose. This from a local knight with a helmet that has seen a lot of rough play with no known failures. I am leery of no thrusting tip at all, as there is very little margin of error on the part of the wielder. In this instance, the wielder was a well respected fighter.

Aaron wrote:BINGO!!

A thurst should be felt, easily.

Otherwise it's just taking advantage of safety measures to win.

I'd go for 1.25 tips, covered with a PVC cap to avoid splinters.

It still doesn't have the slim diameter of the real thing, but it would level the playing field a bit.

And with a solid-rattan pollaxe, I could beat away shields instead of being beaten by them.

-Aaron

sigh. Aaron, check your failure characteristics for pvc pipe caps. Instead of possible loose rattan fibres, we could have knife sharp bits of shattered plastic on the tips of our swords.

Your problems defeating shields would not change significantly with the introduction of an unpadded poleaxe. Note that the appearance of unpadded polearms in kingdoms that permit them has not resulted in the rise of poleweapon to dominance.

It is entirely possible to shove an opponent to the ground without striking a good blow in the process.

One of the other issues I can see appearing here is that I may decide to thrust just as my opponent decides to come a bit closer. This could make for a much harder hit than I would intend. That's fine if I hit the opponent in the face grill but might prove painful if I get the shot just a bit lower. Don't think about taking that thrust in the face when talking about safety measures, That's a very well armored part of the body. Think about the worst case scenario... like a shot to the gorget.

Per the current society standards, LPTT must have at least 1.25" of foam on the tip.

5.When thrusting tips are used, they shall be at least the same diameter as the sword they aremounted on and have at least 1¼ inch (31.8mm) of resilient material in front of the rigid tip of the weapon providing at least ½ inch (12.7mm) of progressively resistant give across the face of the thrusting tip. (Note: Pressing with the thumb into the center of the thrusting tip is not an adequate test. The give must be across the entire face of the tip.).

The current experiment with ELPTT, at least in the West, allows the tip to have only 3/4" of foam (with 1/2" of give). This is for 1H weapons only.

Why the less amount of foam? When we were first experimenting with LPTT, the rule, IIRC, was 1" of foam. These were found to be safe. When the new society rules came out, they demanded 1.25" of foam. Many of us found that with the extra 25% of foam, the tips were tearing off more frequently. Also, with more foam on the tip, it is more likely that it can be forced more than 1/2" into a legal face opening. Think about it. The maximum face opening is a hair under 1" (doesn't admit a 1" dowel). The minimum sword diameter, and therefore tip diameter, is 1.25". If the tip is centered on the 1" openning, then there is just the top & bottom 1/8" slivers of the foam tip keeping it out of the grill. Since the foam compresses, which is what it is supposed to do, it can easily squish its way between the bars. With the base of the rattan 1.25" below the tip, it can push quite a distance into the helm. With less foam on the tip, it cannot be pushed as far into the helm. If we go down to 1/2" of foam, then we will be guaranteed to pass the "doesn't go 1/2" into helm" rule.

As for the No-Profile tips, yes, they are required to be capped with something (leather, webbing, etc.), and are clearly marked as SuperExperimentalWeapons. In addition, for this experiment, only a select group of individuals is permitted to use these weapons, and only against others in that group, under penalty of having their card pulled. It is a *very* controlled experiment. Thus far, there have been no injuries that I am aware of. One of the fighters said it sucked getting hit with it, but no more than with a regular LPTT.

The other experimental tips we are playing with involve standard LPTT (1.25" x diameter of rattan) for 2H weapons and 2"x2" tips for fiberglass spears/pikes.

- Scott

Milan wrote:Think about the worst case scenario... like a shot to the gorget.

I landed a solid, No-Profile thrust to a friend's (rather minimal) gorget. He called the shot good and we continued fighting. Ditto for the body thrust.

BTW: We aren't doing "touch kill" thrusts, either.

One thing to note about the foam-less tips - Thrusts tend to skip more without the foam to "grab" onto the armour. In fact, when this was first discussed, I had a friend throw lots of thrusts at me with both a standard tip and a no-profile tip. The one without the foam seemed to hit *lighter*. This could be a consequence of the above mentioned skipping.

- Scott

Milan wrote:Think about the worst case scenario... like a shot to the gorget.

Your gorget is not well armoured?

Kilkenny wrote:sigh. Aaron, check your failure characteristics for pvc pipe caps. Instead of possible loose rattan fibres, we could have knife sharp bits of shattered plastic on the tips of our swords.

Your problems defeating shields would not change significantly with the introduction of an unpadded poleaxe. Note that the appearance of unpadded polearms in kingdoms that permit them has not resulted in the rise of poleweapon to dominance.

It is entirely possible to shove an opponent to the ground without striking a good blow in the process.

Your counteragruements are very effective, as always.

-Aaron

Vlasta wrote:I knew about the ELPTT before I fought the gent. However, now that I have been hit by one I am now going to refuse to fight anyone with a 2 handed weapon equiped with one.

Vlasta

Your opponent's weapon had a LPTT (1.25" foam), not an ELPTT (.75" foam). ELPTTs are only permitted on 1H weapons.

Where his weapon differed from a non-experimental weapon is that his tip was 1.25" x weapon diameter (1.25" min) vs. 2" x 2".

I remember that fight - it was the refight after the double-kill. I don't remember you saying you were injured, though.

You are within your rights to refuse to face any experimental weapon in an SCA tournament. Your opponent must then switch to a non-experimental weapon. You are also within your rights to refuse to face *any* weapon that you deem unsafe. However, other than the case with the experimental weapons, if the marshal doesn't agree that the weapon is unsafe, I believe that you would then have to either fight it anyway or forfeit the fight.

BTW: That tournament, and those other tourneys inspired by it, is not an SCA event.

- Scott

Scott wrote:

Vlasta wrote:I knew about the ELPTT before I fought the gent. However, now that I have been hit by one I am now going to refuse to fight anyone with a 2 handed weapon equiped with one.

Vlasta

Your opponent's weapon had a LPTT (1.25" foam), not an ELPTT (.75" foam). ELPTTs are only permitted on 1H weapons.

Where his weapon differed from a non-experimental weapon is that his tip was 1.25" x weapon diameter (1.25" min) vs. 2" x 2".

I remember that fight - it was the refight after the double-kill. I don't remember you saying you were injured, though.

You are within your rights to refuse to face any experimental weapon in an SCA tournament. Your opponent must then switch to a non-experimental weapon. You are also within your rights to refuse to face *any* weapon that you deem unsafe. However, other than the case with the experimental weapons, if the marshal doesn't agree that the weapon is unsafe, I believe that you would then have to either fight it anyway or forfeit the fight.

BTW: That tournament, and those other tourneys inspired by it, is not an SCA event.

- Scott

Scott,

In case you didn't notice the green and red striping on the tip of the weapon it WAS an ELPTT. That's what that color coding means. Standard LPTT require that they be Red. Hence it was an experimental weapon. As such, if I refuse to fight it, he would have had to replace the weapon.

As for being injured, I've had my wrist broken at a fighting practice. I fought for another hour after the initial pain. It was later that night, when I couldn't shift gears in my car, that I went into the ER and found it was broken. This shot to the ribs is similar. The initial pain was great. (The video is up on YouTube now.) I don't even remember taking the 2 steps after the blow and kneeling. All I remember was that it _hurt_ and dropping to my knees. I fought the rest of the tournament with no problems. Now however I am having trouble doing things like getting into and out of cars. (Its amazing how we never know what parts of the body we use for simple things until they are injured.)

And yes, I know the Crapaud Tournament is not an official SCA event.

Vlasta

Hey, out of the peanut gallery here... if you have guys putting in excessive amounts of force in order to overcome the padding, why not use a curled cuirboilli tip? You can have it run right along the shaft langet-style, curl it over, have it run down the other. Because it's hardened, it'll keep its form, and the curve means no edge to go into a helm. Because there's an empty space, there'll be a little give so it's not too ridiculous...

Vlasta wrote:
In case you didn't notice the green and red striping on the tip of the weapon it WAS an ELPTT. That's what that color coding means. Standard LPTT require that they be Red. Hence it was an experimental weapon. As such, if I refuse to fight it, he would have had to replace the weapon.

Vlasta

You're half right. The red & green striping indicates that it is an experimental weapon. However, the experiment here is that it is a standard 1H LPTT being used on a 2H weapon. The ELPTT are only permitted on 1H weapons.

The red tip is a Western regulation and is not society-wide. In some places, the LPTT is referred to as a "stealth tip", and is often not marked in any manner to indicate that a thrusting tip is even present on the weapon.

BTW: Of course I noticed the tip & marking. I try to always take a good look at my opponents' weapons & shields, with an eye towards what strengths & weaknesses they may have. For example, your sword was significantly longer (4-6") than mine.

I believe that the tip on his weapon, while being of reduced diameter, still had 2" of foam on it. I remember telling him that he only needed 1.25". Perhaps it folded over on you? Another danger with having too much foam on a tip!

I hope you feel better.

- Scott

GS is correct here Vlasta, it is supposed to be standard LPTT on a 2H sword, which is what makes it experimental. I will check the sword in question at crown to be sure it meets the rules.

I am sorry you were injured. I am also sorry I have not replied to our email, i have not logged into my EM account for a week due to work crazyness. I shall do so now.

Scott wrote:

Vlasta wrote:
In case you didn't notice the green and red striping on the tip of the weapon it WAS an ELPTT. That's what that color coding means. Standard LPTT require that they be Red. Hence it was an experimental weapon. As such, if I refuse to fight it, he would have had to replace the weapon.

Vlasta

You're half right. The red & green striping indicates that it is an experimental weapon. However, the experiment here is that it is a standard 1H LPTT being used on a 2H weapon. The ELPTT are only permitted on 1H weapons.

The red tip is a Western regulation and is not society-wide. In some places, the LPTT is referred to as a "stealth tip", and is often not marked in any manner to indicate that a thrusting tip is even present on the weapon.

BTW: Of course I noticed the tip & marking. I try to always take a good look at my opponents' weapons & shields, with an eye towards what strengths & weaknesses they may have. For example, your sword was significantly longer (4-6") than mine.

I believe that the tip on his weapon, while being of reduced diameter, still had 2" of foam on it. I remember telling him that he only needed 1.25". Perhaps it folded over on you? Another danger with having too much foam on a tip!

I hope you feel better.

- Scott

Artus_Quintus wrote:GS is correct here Vlasta, it is supposed to be standard LPTT on a 2H sword, which is what makes it experimental. I will check the sword in question at crown to be sure it meets the rules.

I am sorry you were injured. I am also sorry I have not replied to our email, i have not logged into my EM account for a week due to work crazyness. I shall do so now.

Ah! I stand corrected on that. I know he did a VERY good job on making that point the same size as his weapon tip. You really can't see where the rattan ends and the thrusting tip begins.

Like I said, I don't think he did anything wrong. I'm just of the oppinion that there is too much mass behind that impact for the thrusting tip size. I've taken equivalent shots from Kealson Skyfire (rest his soul) with the standard thrusting tip on a glaive and didn't have a problem with it.

Vlasta

I was going to ask why the smaller diameter TT made a difference in force levels, then the same thickness of foam would be tip. Then I realized that the area of the surface in contact with the target had decreased, which should increase the force, correct? Physics is not my strong point, except when calculating explosive withdrawl distances.

I'm for TT that are safe, but hit hard enough to be noticed. If we are worried that the LCD fighter won't be safe, then perhaps we need to reconsider how we authorize?

In Atenveldt we all ready use 2" tips on all 2 handed weapons of rattan, we have seen no increase in injuries. Now, we just completed an experiment using 2" tips on fibre poles. That one was a no go, even with our "hard hitting" standard, they landed with far to much impact. That was with 10 yr plus experts using them. If a new fighter were to get a hold of one in my humble opinion, injuries would ensue. The kingdoms that adhere to a" touch face only " standard , would be unable to get it to work. Also broken ribs are a definite possibility for surprised and reaction shots.

Could.
Might.
Should.
These words keep coming up. In the end they are nothing more the uneducated guesses at what the new fight characteristics of the lower profile weapons are capable of. The reason we are experimenting with the different tips is to get a wide sample of folks at different skill levels to test and give feedback on how they different tips perform under a variety of circumstances. Once we have that data we can move forward with open eyes and educated minds.
From the data I have collected and the reports I have LPTTs They are safe on two-handed weapons but they need to be maintained and rebuilt regularly of they loose their ability to not bottom out. The singlehanded weapons with just enough foam to now bottom out work far better that new current SCA wide rules requiring 1.25 in of foam. They don’t fold over as much; they are less likely to fail by compressing into a bargrill, they are less likely to tear off. They (like the two-handeds) need to be kept up more often.


I have not worked with the no padding tips yet.

I am a pussy.

All this talk about how hard tips will be. Let's me tells ya a tale.

Once, I was fighting in this tournament. I find my opponent is easily fooled by a left advance into his range while he swings and a quick shield snatch opening with a thrust to the belly that I follow with an offside snap. After twice of the snatch stab offside snap (thrust ignored, snap blocked), I decide to chase him around and stab him a few times. So, I get brutal on him and rush up and get in his grill throwing a bunch of scary but useless stuff so I can step left, snatch...bam bam bam, and stab three times in the gut. We break.
The marshals call a hold because my thrusty had come off in the initial flurry, before I was poking. It was at the far side of the list.

Even with no tip. Called light.

I hit like a girl. Putting a q-tip on the end only makes it like a weak girl.[/i]

Nissan Maxima wrote:I think overall average force requirement to get a kill with a thrust would decrease, reducing overall risk.

I think that would tend to teach bad technique, and it would make body thrusts more like face thrusts.

Keep seeing a thrust to the chest slide up and into the chin. With Tips on this happens less often, and when it does the tip runs into things taking much of the force away. I think monkeying around with our weapon standards without changing our armour standards is just asking for injuries. Our armour standards were made to protect us against our weapon standard ie 2"tips 1 1/4" dia. for all weapons etc. Changing weapon standards simply because they look better does not really seem like a good reason all by itself. Are the new tips safer? I wouls have to say that against min SCA armour Lp are not as safe simply because of more force in a smaller area. Our weapons need to be designed to be safe for someone in min armour, or we need to change the min armour required.

Balin
Aten

Christophe de Frisselle wrote:

Milan wrote:Think about the worst case scenario... like a shot to the gorget.

Your gorget is not well armoured?

Nah, I'm fine there. I just saw a lot of references to pikes with no padding and comparing by face thrusts. War can get hectic and there will be people hitting a whole lot harder. I understand that fighters should control the power of their shots but that control sometimes goes out the window in the heat of battle. People get a bit flustered and increase their shot power instead of cooling off.

I just don't want to see something that is barely safe in a one-on-one context get used in a war scenario and have people filling up the infirmary.

Further, Thanks, Balin.

Milan, If you (general, not YOU) are not comfortable with getting a cut to the throat with a greatsword with both hands then you might want to start shopping for a new gorget...

Balin, have your tried the new tips?
really?
Or are you just guessing?

Vlasta wrote:Why are there now experiments using smaller and smaller thrusting tips on weapons? I wasn't all that happy with the Low Profile Thrusting Tip as I thought they could cause some serious harm.

Now there are experiments with Extreamely Low Profile Thrusting Tips and even thrusting with no padding at all.

Why? What is the impetus behind these?

Vlasta

I dunno, I've never been hurt by a thrust of any kind... not even mildly hurt, or kind of rocked.

I've been rocked a bit by some snaps or short sticks. I personally in my limited knowledge have a hard time seeing why thrusting tips are even necessary. Call me crazy, but I can't see that small amount of padding being the difference between didn't feel it, and on my back.

Ceddie wrote:Milan, If you (general, not YOU) are not comfortable with getting a cut to the throat with a greatsword with both hands then you might want to start shopping for a new gorget...

Dude, I am not comfortable with any shot landing on me, anywhere... that's the driving force behind attempting to acquire some sort of figting competency Otherwise I'd just stand there getting hit, thinking about how cool armor is....

Artus, can I make a suggestion?

Rename ELPTTs. Not only is it confusing to have two experiments running in the same domain, but one of the experments doesn't have a good name (LPTTs are legal, what's there to experiment with? Oh, on two-handed weapons....), and the other is different by a single vowel from the first -- and saying "ELPTT" sounds like "a LPTT" so folks who aren't directly involved with the minutiae of the experiment get totally confused.

Go verbose.. "inline thrusting tips" and "reduced padding tips" sounds a little more distinct. Not everything needs to be a YABA*.

Ok, enough back-seat marshalling from me...

-D
* Yet Another Bloody Acronym

Leo Medii wrote:Keep in mind Aaron, that the most effective way to thrust is not effective in SCA combat. Also, thrusting is by far the least issue with great weapons and SCA rulesset.
Imagine the joy you would feel if you could cut someone down at the calf with your cleaver.......

It would be nice to hook their heel, and then get to ground work.

I miss the Tuchux Charity Touranment, but next year I should be good for it! I'm doing combatives twice a week.

-Aaron

I'm sorry that I have no time to read this entire thread (busy at work) but I need to throw this in. I have been doing calculations on thrusting tip used with ballistas for the past 2 years. I think I have a fairly good mathematical model of how thrusting tips behave. A thrusting tip is mostly air trapped in a lot of little bubbles. We tend to think of them like springs and use the math we learned in highschool: If you push or pull twice as hard on a spring it moves twice as far... until it hits some limit that is never well defined in highschool physics.

In reality foam-tip force is proportional to the amount of volume left for the air (technicly raised to the 7/5 but we can ignore that for a moment. It's an adiabatic gas equation). As we compress the foam tip (which might be 70% air) when we get close to 30% of the original height we start to get a divide by zero error in the math and the load becomes astronomical... In essence THEY ALL BOTTOM OUT.

If a single handed sword thrusting tip take 10lbs to compress it half an inch then it might take 100lbs to compress it .8" and 1000 lbs to compress it .85". It will never reach .875" The amount of energy absorbed in the first half inch is negligible.

The difference between a thrust with a foam tip and without is that the peak impact is maybe 5% lower and a few milliseconds later. The primary difference is PERCEPTION of impact which is most evident when thrusting soft targets where the tip typicly distributes the impact over a larger area. I imagine that thrusting without tips will be more likely to dent metal then thrusting without tips because of the concentrated energy... but we already dent metal with sword-strikes. It's part of the game.

Sean

Thrusts though are easier generally speaking to land and have a greater chance of hitting gaps in armor. Instead of denting mental they break a rib. I am not worried about someone armored for the battle of 30 getting hurt with a little tip it is the guys in SCA min with alot of unarmored areas.

Why change tips at all? Is the old design causing injuries? Are the new tip ideas safer?

As to the question if i have tried them. I have had them used against me, but unless i am fighting 2 stick i never have a thrusting tip on a 1 handed sword. The reason i do when i fight 2 stick is it is on my left hand sword as a crutch to help make up for my left hand.

I was told not to use a stabbing tip when i was coming up because it is a crutch and would hurt my other shots because of how easy it is to stab someone.

Balin
Aten