The Armour Archive

So what's worse?

The Generi-SCA fighter in spuntop helm, sportsgear under tunic, baskethilt sword and plain aluminum shield ....

Or the guy making a real attempt - and a good one, visually - at a non-mainstream persona, like Aztec?



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Why not go for a billhook? Simple curve since it's in rattan, and quite a practical weapon, while still being peasanty. If he feels like upgrading his persona to "professional soldier", it's time for the spikes to start sprouting all over the head.

Could be he didn't know.

I bet most non-SCA/Living history/re-enactment people hear the word "peasant" and think scythe, or pitchfork.

Show him the alternatives, then let him make his own decision. If it doesn't work, he'll figure it out soon enough!


Dilan
(Who has told more than one new person "See how this might not work real well?")


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Even worse than the "doesn't work in real life" is the "doesn't work in pretend life" answer. For example, when the period (or as can best be recreated) martial techniques depend heavily on things that are considered too dangerous for use in reenactment. Like targeting the face, throat, knees, hands and feet, or angling spearpoints upwards.

You know, I usually have an easier time getting new people to accept stuff that won't work in SCA combat due to our rules.

I guess it is easier for them to understand that we don't allow nets for safety reasons.

Usually, I can get them to accept the limitations of the "bad kung-fu / D&D fantasy weapon" by pointing out if it really worked, wouldn't they have used it in history...

And then you still have to let some guys figure it out for themselves.


Or as my Irish Grandfather would say -

- Some people will just accept that you know what you're talking about. Some people will need a more detailed explanation to understand.

And then you have the guy who you just gotta let piss on the electric fence to find out for themselves.



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sounds akin to

"some idiot is always trying to iceskate uphill"

Dilan wrote:Could be he didn't know.

I bet most non-SCA/Living history/re-enactment people hear the word "peasant" and think scythe, or pitchfork.

Show him the alternatives, then let him make his own decision. If it doesn't work, he'll figure it out soon enough!


Dilan
(Who has told more than one new person "See how this might not work real well?")


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Actually, in Altantia, in the days of yore, when I was EM, with dispensation of the Society Marshal, we had events where we allowed weapons like this, when we met with various other groups, e.g., Marklandr, MSR, etc. And we then had people from Marklandr, "Weird Weapon" Charlie in specific, who fought with such weapons, pole flail, pitchfork, etc.. Now these were not tournaments, but wars. And "friendship events", not "competitions" per se, heavily marshalled.

On the formal methods retained and recorded, we have all kinds of stuff, including pictures of the Emperor Maximilian using the pole flail, in the lists. And I have seen armored fighting with Franconian kampfshild (you know those whacky man height shields, one or two handed, with spikes and hooks and all that stuff on them.) Sources are Paulus Hector Mair and das Wasskunig, about Max. I could come up with more. I think both of these can be found on the web.

Sebastian, what period did the shotel come into use? I suspect they would have been using some form of them for a long time due to the close relations with Egypt and the kopesh(?). Europe has had contact with Ethiopia for a long time. According to Greek myths it was Apollo's out of controll sun chariot coming too close to Earth that gave 'us' or dark skin. Ethiopian means burnt face in Greek. Ethiopians were at Troy. I believe Memnon was the king at the time and he brought an army of warriors with him during the middle of the war.

Dilan wrote:So what's worse?

The Generi-SCA fighter in spuntop helm, sportsgear under tunic, baskethilt sword and plain aluminum shield ....

Or the guy making a real attempt - and a good one, visually - at a non-mainstream persona, like Aztec?



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Worse?

In most cases, I think that both are great (there are exceptions).

Dilan, I am NOT saying that this applies to you. It DOES apply to some people, and they probably know without a doubt whether or not this applies to them.

The people I have a real problem with are the ones that think that they are better than other people, despite paying the same membership fees.

Generally, as people mature in this game, we become more accurate in our impressions. This is a good thing. It is almost inevitable.

We also start to think that we get to pass judgement on the new people. This is the mark of a small person that is willing to actively hurt their Kingdom, the Society, the Game and The Dream for a short term, cheap ego boost. "Oh, Look! I'm better than him. I'm better than you! It doesn't matter that I am a loser with self diagnosed Asperger's Syndrome, self diagnosed Oppositional Defiant Disorder, a beer gut, a mangy beard, and a bad pair of tights who lives in my mother's basement and who might one day be promoted to manager of the burger hut. Look at my turnshoes! I hit people with sticks really well, and some girls like me (but only at Pennsic)."

We all have the potential to be "That Guy". I know I do. I have had times when I wallowed in it, reveling in my own turpitude. I actually believed I was doing the right thing.

This is a game of weekend make believe, despite any pretentions of educational value, we are all in this game for fun and laughs. The game works best when we all play together. You can say that your fantasy is better than somebody else's fantasy all day long, but in the end, it's still a fantasy.

Lets stop talking about how bad or worse people are, and start talking about how good they can be, and how we can help them.

We still fight with a stick, when there are clubs out there that fight with swords. There are clubs that don't fight with indestructible shields. There are clubs that don't fight on their knees. There are clubs that don't fight with invunerable basket hilts. We are not as period as we can be. Being more period, however, would require that we be in a different club. We all joined this club. Let's help the club we joined, no the club in which we want to be.

We are not making the club better by driving out newbies. We are not making the club better by making it smaller, despite how much we lie to ourselves and others. We are making ourselves big fish in a small pond, and we are making the pond smaller to make ourselves feel bigger.

In the question of the original poster, the new people need to be encouraged to adopt a more successful fighting style, not a more period fighting style. The silly weapons are a losing fighting style. We have "Stupid weapons" for the last few minutes of our local practice here in Nebelwald, because it's just plain fun. We save it for the last few minutes, because it's usually unsuccessful. People drop stupid weapons styles because those styles are stupid. With encouragement, the new folks will eventually become more accurate, and they will be the leaders (and the dues payers) of tomorrow. We will not drop out. They might. How they are treated is more important than how we are treated.

Driving newbies out with unkind words is the sign of a churl who makes others feel bad so that they can feel good.

Even Good Men can have moments of churlishness. Guard yourself constantly.

Don't be a churl.

We are In Service to The Dream. Lets do good service.

(I asked The Emerald Lady to preview this post before I posted it. She said that she was glad that I had finally said what was on my mind, but I should expect some "feedback" on it.

Bring it on.)

f

nkante wrote:Sebastian, what period did the shotel come into use? I suspect they would have been using some form of them for a long time due to the close relations with Egypt and the kopesh(?).

You see?!! You see how insidious this is? We've already got someone trying on the idea of a Shotel. Yep, we are all Abyssinians now, or at least in the near future. Next it will be War Kittens. OOOOH, I've said too much!

Sebastian, what period did the shotel come into use?

Don't know, but the depictions I've see of it was with guys who also had rifles.

It's not an unheard of shape though, from the ancient falcata to the the modern kukri. If you find something depicted in period, let us know for sure.

freiman the minstrel wrote:beer gut

Guilty.




If ya ask me (ya didn't), I say that every new fighter has the potential to be the next super-duke and driving force in our game. We need to steward those new to our game and encourage them toward the possibility of their potential.

If any of my posts did not convey this sentiment, my most luscious apologies.

Clinker, why couldn't I be an Abyssinian? I already stated they were active in European warfare during classical times. And there was a group of Christian Ethiopian Knights that campained in the crusades. They were mistaken for Saracen and attacked by European Knights. Eygyptian caliphs also led a group of sudanic mercs during one of the crusades. Would it alright to portray them.

Nkante your kit looks awesome (only seen a video and the photo you posted a while back). A friend of mine showed some interest in trying SCA combat as a Masai warrior but sadly he lost interest.

Bleddyn De Caldicot wrote:Nkante your kit looks awesome (only seen a video and the photo you posted a while back). A friend of mine showed some interest in trying SCA combat as a Masai warrior but sadly he lost interest.

Link please

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Higpmx-HwQM

I HOPE this is him, not sure how to pronounce the name but he looks like the person in a picture Nkante posted on the archive (can't recall which thread sorry). He is the second person to be interviews and the newer picture of him he is wearing new body armour which looks nicer.

Leopold der Wolf wrote:

Bleddyn De Caldicot wrote:Nkante your kit looks awesome (only seen a video and the photo you posted a while back). A friend of mine showed some interest in trying SCA combat as a Masai warrior but sadly he lost interest.

Link please

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... t=#1203932

He's working on making the helm look more-correct for the persona.
Well done off the beaten pathness.
(Pathness!)

Nkante, I have no problem with someone trying to portray a relatively exotic, or at least little known people from the periphery of the Knowne World. What I fear is the "Scottish Ninja" crowd picking a new tool to rules-lawyer a(temporary) advantage in sport fighting thru an Abyssinian chapter in their improbable personas.

That said, You may find it difficult to place the Shotel in a period timeframe. Due as much as anything, from a lack of readily available records.

I hear you clicker. I have seen one or two celts with katanas.

Hey Bleddyn, I thought about doing masi as well. Mostly hidden armor. Big old shield and a bunch of thrust and throw javs. Try to get your buddy to come out again.

Freiman -

Absolutley!

Thank you for making the point I was trying to.....



Dilan


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Clinker wrote:That said, You may find it difficult to place the Shotel in a period timeframe. Due as much as anything, from a lack of readily available records.

The Royal Armories has loaned one to The Frazier Arms Museum in Louisville KY, and I think that particular one dates to the 18/19thC.

Here is a video showing the deadliness and weakness of a Macahuitl and assorted other aztec weapontry.
'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBa1G12KyTM

The action starts around 1:40

Leopold der Wolf wrote:Here is a video showing the deadliness and weakness of a Macahuitl and assorted other aztec weapontry.
'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBa1G12KyTM

The action starts around 1:40

so, if you are wearing no armour and are naked, the Macahuitl could do some damage. But, if you have armour on you will basically be fighting someone with a light club.

How did they come to the conclusion that the
military technologies were equal?
And if they were, how do they explain 1,000 Spaniards
defeating 100,000 Aztecs?
And what was up with the Mexi-rap at the beginning?

-Graedwyn

Graedwyn wrote:How did they come to the conclusion that the
military technologies were equal?
And if they were, how do they explain 1,000 Spaniards
defeating 100,000 Aztecs?
And what was up with the Mexi-rap at the beginning?

-Graedwyn

Umm guns?


ohh and diseases... don't forget diseases!

Graedwyn wrote:How did they come to the conclusion that the
military technologies were equal?

I want to know why they ignored the fact that the Spanish had shields and maille, and I'd still like to know what the hell was up with the two-handed sword swing for a one-handed sword.

Yay, quasi-science!

MJBlazek wrote:

Graedwyn wrote:How did they come to the conclusion that the
military technologies were equal?
And if they were, how do they explain 1,000 Spaniards
defeating 100,000 Aztecs?
And what was up with the Mexi-rap at the beginning?

-Graedwyn

Umm guns?

ohh and diseases... don't forget diseases!

Many westerners overlook the fact that the Aztecs were so DEEPLY HATED by all their client peoples that as soon as an apparently decent alternative appeared, everyone lined up behind them.

The Spaniards may have started off with a thousand, but by the time they faced any large armies, they were leading a coalition of thousands of natives desperate to get rid of the hideous Aztecs.

For some deep, disturbing, fascinating insight, read This Tree Grows Out of Hell by Tompkins.

I think Sebastian was on the right track as far as bending up the rattan. I've seen some of the best two handed axes ever made from a single D shaped piece fo cooked rattan.

I would start him on a glaive to get him used to the mechanics of hooking and chopping with a more forgiving weapon like the glaive. Although he might have fun with the novelty of the scythe it's a little like when you get bored and go at a sword and board guy with two short daggers. It's fun for a change of pace but gets really old really quickly and reminds you why it's fun to use some more traditional weapons.

For the aztec weapon. take split rattan chips 2'' or so long bevel the edges so you don't rip everything they get hooked on apart, and tape them to the edges of the sword and use courtesy padding as needed. They look good when taped up right and give a better feel than a tape job alone.

Nissan Maxima wrote:

Joaquin wrote:

Nissan Maxima wrote:They had civilization when your ancestors were still wearing uncured skins.

Did they? Cite, please.

So yes, I am saying that D. Sebastian's ancestors were likely still wearing uncured skins 1800 years before the common era, depending of course on where D. Sebastians ancestors were then. If I am wrong he can find me on the battlefield and beat an apology out of me.

My progenitors wore skins up till the Nixon administration. I'm wearing a leather loin cloth right now. I'll post pics later.

Am I the only one who got a mental pic of a pretty, feather decorated topless chic on the battlefield?

Domnall wrote:Am I the only one who got a mental pic of a pretty, feather decorated topless chic on the battlefield?

What did you call me?

[quote="Corby de la Flamme"]

The Spaniards may have started off with a thousand, but by the time they faced any large armies, they were leading a coalition of thousands of natives desperate to get rid of the hideous Aztecs.

That makes sense.
But I still do not see how they found equivalence
between the two technologies in the video.

-Graedwyn

Mr. Magoo1812 wrote:For the aztec weapon. take split rattan chips 2'' or so long bevel the edges so you don't rip everything they get hooked on apart, and tape them to the edges of the sword and use courtesy padding as needed. They look good when taped up right and give a better feel than a tape job alone.

Should the rattan chips be made to fall off after
they have hit something hard (like a shield
or armor)?
Rendering that section useless as a weapon.

-Graedwyn

As a digression, although the flint edged weapons may have been ineffective there are extent samples of Samoan war clubs that would have been effective against our presumed armour standard. The attached picture is a approxamately 10 pound club fabricated fron lignum vitaea.
Without special cooling, I can tell you from personal experiance that this material is proof against my carbide tipped tablesaw blade.

A lot of these weapons still exist due to the cultural practice of retiring them to shrines after they had been used to kill some sacred number of enemies. (Usually five).

What type of material is lignum vitaea? Animal, Vegtable or mineral?