Combat Archery: Why is it so hated?

[Vlasta]

Samurai? Seriously... don't compare apples and oranges. Samurai are accepted by, but NOT the SCA warrior culture.

Vlasta- I had a very similar situation happen to me once at a Fool's War. I was the last person left on my side, and after having been offered single combat by the opposing warriors, and having fought my way though quite a few of them, some jackass shot me with a crossbow bolt. It was the single lamest moment I have ever had in the SCA- with the exception (maybe) of getting one shotted in my first battle after getting knighted I don't give a shit what that schmuck was thinking, he ruined a moment. If that was a hero moment for him, then he deserves whatever happened to him after the combined Meridian Chivalry teleported around him and carted him off to have a "talking to."

And deservedly so as your opponents had honored your request for single combat. I'm afraid that I've been in units that did the same thing as we didn't _know_ single combat had been granted and we were marching through the area on the way to hitting another unit. We appologized, but kept going.

The rank newbie does occasionally get me too. The difference is, that I can "get them back" as part of the game. Archers live outside of the system and code that we have set up for what we consider a "war" to be and what we consider "Chivalric Behavior" to be as well. The Newbie knows that they are getting me unawares, and that they will probably "pay" the next time I find him or her. The Archer, however, gets away without any penalty, and virtually no threat. Should I respect this? Should I even care how much fun they are having at my and my friend's and peer's expense?

Your Grace, CA was part of the very first war the SCA ever had. Its always been here so you're statement confuses me a bit. Folks more eloquant than I have been working out the "Chivalric" theme on this thread. I think I see your perspective. I don't agree with it, but we each have the right to our own oppinions.

[St. George]

It doesn't matter if CA is historically accurate or not. What matters is whether the addition of CA to a battle is a) safe for the participants and b) adds to or detracts from the fun of the game.

Is it safe?
Is it fun?

If the answer is yes to both of those, then CA should be kept. If the answer is no to the first, or no to the second for the majority of participants, then it should be removed.

I believe that the answer to both questions (as long as we are using shafted arrows, marshals who don't wear proper protective gear, and we allow crowds to get too close to the action) is a resounding NO.

g-

[Valstarr Hawkwind]

That we're your well-loved fellow Ansteorrans?

OK, I've only read the last 50+ replies in this thread, but there've probably been over a thousand I've read in nearly 11 years here on the AA.

I once bought a full kit of CA gear, and got authorized for it, but even when I was still getting out and fighting a bit, never used it. I thought it would be cool. Later, I just decided I wasn't interested in it, then in large part because of the hassles I saw involved in it.

Now, should I get active in heavy fighting this year as I hope to, my hope is to become a competent heavy weapons fighter. I wouldn't mind shooting some target archery on the side, but the one-against-one or even group fighting is what appeals.

OT, but if some of our 21rst century leaders had to think they might have to face their foes over three feet of cold steel, I think we'd have a different caliber of leader!


Val

I'm from Texas. Just imagine what I think about Oklahoma.

[Fokke]

Thanks to whoever said it, I couldnt remember the word from my anthropology classes.
Ethnocentrism- the belief ones culture is superior to others.
We have it in the real world, I say it all the time, its what currently is causing issues between the Western world and the middle east, both of us think ours is the way things should be thus we want them to be that way too. It can easily be said from both standpoints, which is more correct? I would say ours, but hey, never said I was not guilty of it either.
I dont think the SCA was ever meant to only include England and France as the basis of the Society. In my humble opinion and belief, the idea is to recreate all cultures of the middle-ages, we just tend to stick with Western civilization because that is what we identify with the best. It does not mean that the far east is any lesser a culture and does not belong. I have had the pleasure to know several knights from Mongol and Japanese cultures, and they are no less worthy than any of the knights with western personnas. Why should they and the people like them who have eastern or non-English/French ideals be forced to make consessions because someone doesnt think its fair. I am not a Sammy or or a Mongol, but i have major issue with people saying that they are lesser warriors for not fighting like a westerner.
The Dream for you might be western cultures only, the Dream for me says all cultures are acceptable including those who hold CA in high regard.
If you are a spectator watching a CA involved battle, you know the risks, marshals should be wearing at least full face and a cup if marshalling a CA event. As for fighters on the field, whats not safe? Sir Carl stands there with no armor and tests each of his siege weapons by shooting himself in the chest point blank just to assure the marshals of the safety of them. We are wearing full armor, if you arent, thats your business, you know the risks.
Ok, enough of this, i need to do some work some time i guess heheh.

[GregorMacBeathain]

Audax:

Oh and that 12 foot pike thing must be a Western thing. We only use nine footers in Ansteorra.

I double checked, and we (Ansteorra) don't have a rule against them, we just conform to the society standard (12 ft.).

Unless you mean that nobody really uses them much; the only time I've personally ever seen one used was a couple BAMs ago when Sir Corwin used one to clear the stairs.

[St. George]

Thanks to whoever said it, I couldnt remember the word from my anthropology classes.
Ethnocentrism- the belief ones culture is superior to others.
We have it in the real world, I say it all the time, its what currently is causing issues between the Western world and the middle east, both of us think ours is the way things should be thus we want them to be that way too. It can easily be said from both standpoints, which is more correct? I would say ours, but hey, never said I was not guilty of it either.
I dont think the SCA was ever meant to only include England and France as the basis of the Society. In my humble opinion and belief, the idea is to recreate all cultures of the middle-ages, we just tend to stick with Western civilization because that is what we identify with the best. It does not mean that the far east is any lesser a culture and does not belong. I have had the pleasure to know several knights from Mongol and Japanese cultures, and they are no less worthy than any of the knights with western personnas. Why should they and the people like them who have eastern or non-English/French ideals be forced to make consessions because someone doesnt think its fair. I am not a Sammy or or a Mongol, but i have major issue with people saying that they are lesser warriors for not fighting like a westerner.
The Dream for you might be western cultures only, the Dream for me says all cultures are acceptable including those who hold CA in high regard.
If you are a spectator watching a CA involved battle, you know the risks, marshals should be wearing at least full face and a cup if marshalling a CA event. As for fighters on the field, whats not safe? Sir Carl stands there with no armor and tests each of his siege weapons by shooting himself in the chest point blank just to assure the marshals of the safety of them. We are wearing full armor, if you arent, thats your business, you know the risks.
Ok, enough of this, i need to do some work some time i guess heheh.

Don't be so naive, spectators on the field do not know the risks. I can assure you that most don't even think about it. If we were to ask our resident real life safety expert about the safety levels of combat archery, he would probably state quite clearly, just as he has before, that CA is not safe, right Nissan?

Sorry to be blunt, but regardless of original intent, or even someone's current Dream, the SCA is and has always been its own culture, and it is decidedly not Medieval. Although people take inspiration from European sources, it is not English, Flemish, Byzantine, Japanese, Aztec, 14th century French or anything. It is simply the SCA. Even within the SCA culture we have subcultures: Calontir is significantly different from Atlantia, the West is different from Ansteorra, etc.

The conflicts over CA and Rapier or Kingdom cultural differences are not conflicts between time periods or European cultures, they are conflicts within the SCA culture itself.

The fight isn't over Medieval Chivalry, it is over fundamental differences in the way people view the game we play, and the culture of the game itself.

I will respond to your phrase "I am not a Sammy or or a Mongol, but i have major issue with people saying that they are lesser warriors for not fighting like a westerner" with this:

I feel they are lesser warriors for not fighting in a way closer to what the form of the SCA ideal warrior is.

g-

[Glaukos the Athenian]

Your Grace,

I was much touched by your obvious sincerity and passion, and you make an excellent point about SCA culture, which was barely touched upon before. But by now you probably notice that I often need help to understand what people say. So I hope you will forgive me if I ask you a question about the last part of the post above.

What is the form of the Ideal SCA warrior?

how is this defined? by whom? the ideal of someone in particular or a consensus? if by consensus, by the consensus of whom? perhaps it is custom? success in the field? tradition?

I was under the impression that Ideal indicates that it relates to an idea, something that resides in a mind. So whose mind is this idea in?


Respectfully,

Rowan

[Vitus von Atzinger]

If we are talking knightly/chivalric culture, France is at the center of that concept. France was the center of the chivalric world.
As far as Laisse 133 I don't see how a description of knights helping to fill ditches has anything to do with all of the crossbow bolts.

This fight is about medieval chivalry. For example, I am less chivalric than I should be because I don't have the time to do equestrian stuff. Every action increases or decreases one's connections to the chivalric past. It's like a kendo/samurai freak who plays with swords in many styles but doesn't have a place to practice traditional archery- he does what he can but he is less authentic for his unfortunate limitations.

You do what you can to get closer to the center- no matter where that center is located. My gooey center? France- English, Italian, German and knights from the low countries all imitated a warrior culture based in France. Vitus simply wouldn't care if the Spanish retards let their knights shoot crossbows.

Yes, based on medieval ideas about high chivalric culture (particularly the "Chivalric Revival" of the mid-late 1300's) cultural ethnocentrism is perfectly acceptable.

Modern ethnocentrism offends me in the extreme.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

I know this is totally contradictory, but my own chivalric ethnocentrism doesn't mean that I don't like to see tons of other cultures represented on the field. I also don't think other warrior traditions are better or less important than others. I just don't like the central French warrior ethics being watered down by period examples of watered down/warped French warrior ethics. I have no more time to bicker (damnit). Gotta get in the Shed.

[Nissan Maxima]

Don't be so naive, spectators on the field do not know the risks. I can assure you that most don't even think about it. If we were to ask our resident real life safety expert about the safety levels of combat archery, he would probably state quite clearly, just as he has before, that CA is not safe, right Nissan?
g-

That was probably rhetorical but for our combatants nothing we do is "safe". For our spectators without combat arhery the remote hazard of a loose weapon or a combatant running through the crowd is vanishingly low.

Risk = Hazard X Exposure

If we construct a critical path to injury to specators from combat archery the number of steps rquired is very low, and the probability of any of these steps occuring is high. 1. Archer fires at target that is between himself and crowd, in range of crowd. 2. target moves or archer misses for any other reason. 3. spectator is in path of arrow. 4. Arrow strikes spactor. 5. Arrow strikes in such a way as to cause injury. (eye face etc.)

1 and 2 have high probability, 3 not so much and 4 lower yet but reasonably foreseeable and 5 lower yet but nonzero.

The solution, increasing the distance between battle and spectators is certainly effective, but negatively impacts yet another group in order to allow participation by archers.

[Russ Mitchell]

I just don't like the central French warrior ethics being watered down by period examples of watered down/warped French warrior ethics. I have no more time to bicker (damnit). Gotta get in the Shed.

Problem is, you're still carrying the period ethnocentrism into your modern thought, and in doing so, committing precisely the error you claim to despise, and priveleging one culture over the other. The Iron Lords and Iberian royal miitary retinues aren't committing watered-down French ethics, as if these peoples somehow felt that the French were the arbiters of knighthood, and needed to constantly double-check to see whether they were doing it right. It's not as if miles sprang into existence solely within France, after all.

Rather, they were practicing perfectly valid Bohemian or Spanish warrior ethics. That the french came up with the Cult of Chivalry does not mean that knighthood and the Cult of Chivalry were synonymous outside of France: the Iron Lords, after all, practiced Heerschaft. Period Vitus would certainly hold his own knightly ethics up as the golden standard which all should emulate, just as Period Magyar Dude will spit in disgust at how the French threw away Nicopolis by trying to treat war as if it were some sort of tournament -- and why not, since French wars were nothing but an ongoing series of tawdry inheritance disputes?

[Vitus von Atzinger]

But right now, it's getting very late. I'll make clarifications later.

Groovy. Meanwhile, I forgot to add Bohemia to the list, in a most relevant example: the knights of the Vltava district, who used crossbows in the very first battle of the Hussite revolution, attempting (unsuccessfully) to interdict Jan Zizka before he could cross with a relatively small band to where he would gain further supporters. Would be 1418 iirc. The Iron Lords were definitely knights. (reference is in Heymann's Jan Zizka and the Hussite Revolution, which I do not own, sadly, but having done lots of grad work on the Hussite Revolution, I can vouch that the chronicle reference is solid).

That is a very neat reference that I have never encountered before.
-V

[Vlasta]

I will respond to your phrase "I am not a Sammy or or a Mongol, but i have major issue with people saying that they are lesser warriors for not fighting like a westerner" with this:

I feel they are lesser warriors for not fighting in a way closer to what the form of the SCA ideal warrior is.

g-

Your Grace, there is no one true ideal in the SCA. It varies widely from Kingdom to Kingdom, and I dare say from person to person.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

"Problem is, you're still carrying the period ethnocentrism into your modern thought, and in doing so, committing precisely the error you claim to despise, and priveleging one culture over the other."

No, I am rating one way of fighting over the other. If a culture produces "knights" that shoot arrows at people they are either too poor to hire archers, or are simply afraid of coming to blows against their enemies. Remember, I LOVED shooting Combat Archery- I did it three times and I have never had so much fun with my clothes on in my entire life. I laughed my head off watching the knights, dukes and mucketymucks getting all pissed off.


Then Sir Corby straightened me out...forever.

[Russ Mitchell]

Rather, Vitus, both sorts engage in close combat. After all, commoners lack the equipment and training to allow this. But some others do more, and some less. That the French preferred to make a virtue of doing less does not make doing more a vice -- unless, of course, one is comfortable tossing about blanket insults about other cultures knights, as you apparently are.

In the face of that, I have nothing else to offer.

[Ludewic]

So, there are a few examples of archer/crossbow wielding knights... out of curiousity, how common was a knight pikeman? (i.e. not on horseback)

SCA and historical correctness might not be all that closely connected, but since the "nobility don't shoot arrows"-argument seems to be somewhat prevailing, I'm really curious about what the nobility actually used in combat. My personal image is the mounted knight with a lance, or s&s when on foot.

Also, the distinction between war and melee seems to have been lost, I can certainly understand why you wouldn't want archers in a melee, but a war without those non-knights would not only mean a field without archers, but also that there are whitebelts only?


As a non-fighter with a busted shoulder I might not have any say in the matter, but I must say that what looks like the most boring thing in a war/melee is the static situations where people get repeatedly plopped in their faces by huuuuuge spears protruding through a shieldwall. Might be fun when you're there, but it sure looks like a very cowardly way to collect kills to me, more so than an archer running around in the open.

[InsaneIrish]

So, there are a few examples of archer/crossbow wielding knights... out of curiousity, how common was a knight pikeman? (i.e. not on horseback)

I don't know about actual knights, but there is evidence that noblemen where employed as Landsknechts in the 16th century. Certainly foot soldiers and easily pikemen.

SCA and historical correctness might not be all that closely connected, but since the "nobility don't shoot arrows"-argument seems to be somewhat prevailing, I'm really curious about what the nobility actually used in combat. My personal image is the mounted knight with a lance, or s&s when on foot.

I think you are lumping "knight" and "nobleman" together. The 2 are not necessarily the same. There were nobles that were not knights and vice versa.

Nobles would use the best equipment their money could buy. Their armour and weapons depended on what they could afford. If a nobleman could afford a horse, armour and lance, then they were cavalry. If they could only afford armour and sword, then they were foot soldiers.

The sticking point about archery is that historically archers were peasant levies. Unskilled farmers and laborers that were conscripted into service, handed a bow and told where to shoot. Much like giving a monkey a club, the use of a bow was pretty simple when used in volley fire. They did not have to be pin point accurate, only able to shoot it in the general direction.

In the SCA we are all considered to be of noble birth, so historically we would not have been conscripted into the archers. We would have been rich enough to afford armour and possibly horse. So, more than likely we would have been armoured foot or commanding troops.

Also, the distinction between war and melee seems to have been lost, I can certainly understand why you wouldn't want archers in a melee, but a war without those non-knights would not only mean a field without archers, but also that there are whitebelts only?

What the SCA does is FAR closer to "grande melee" than war. We call them wars, but what we recreate is much closer to themed grande melee with a few exceptions. It is those exceptions (archery) that people disagree about.

As a non-fighter with a busted shoulder I might not have any say in the matter, but I must say that what looks like the most boring thing in a war/melee is the static situations where people get repeatedly plopped in their faces by huuuuuge spears protruding through a shieldwall. Might be fun when you're there, but it sure looks like a very cowardly way to collect kills to me, more so than an archer running around in the open.

A spear is only 9ft long. The distance between a sheildman and a spear man can be covered in less than 2 seconds. While a spearman may have range on a shieldman, if the shieldman closes the spearman is at a huge disadvantage.

"Collecting kills" I don't know of any rattan fighter that actually counts how many people they killed that day during battle. We may have an idea, but it is not about keeping score, it is about pitting our prowess against our noble opponents. I have heard more than one combat archer leave the field talking to their friends about how many knights, dukes, squires, they killed that day. To them it is about keeping score.

An archer can kill with impunity from a distance of 10-30 yards. Safely ensconced behind their own shieldwall. You will not find an archer willfully out in the open close enough to a rattan fighter for that fighter to close and kill the archer. Unless the archer has screwed up and found himself in a bad spot.

What you may see as "cowardly" use of spears is nothing more than a valid historical tactic employed by engaged forces. It is how you fight and more times than not you will find spearmen out in FRONT of those shield walls instead of behind them.

[St. George]

"Collecting kills" I don't know of any rattan fighter that actually counts how many people they killed that day during battle. We may have an idea, but it is not about keeping score, it is about pitting our prowess against our noble opponents. I have heard more than one combat archer leave the field talking to their friends about how many knights, dukes, squires, they killed that day. To them it is about keeping score.

An archer can kill with impunity from a distance of 10-30 yards. Safely ensconced behind their own shieldwall. You will not find an archer willfully out in the open close enough to a rattan fighter for that fighter to close and kill the archer. Unless the archer has screwed up and found himself in a bad spot.

What you may see as "cowardly" use of spears is nothing more than a valid historical tactic employed by engaged forces. It is how you fight and more times than not you will find spearmen out in FRONT of those shield walls instead of behind them.

I pretty much always count kills in every battle I am in. I try to divide them into confirmed, uncomfirmed (I just hit that guy really hard but don't have time to see if he or she fell), woundings, and assists so I can get an accurate count usually +/- 2. This is part of how I measure prowess for myself. I also keep track of the number of fighters of renown whom I get as well- I know a lot of other top fighters who at least do this if not actually keeping score on the masses they get. Stand around after a Pennsic Belted Battle and listen to the guys talk. You'll hear who killed who, when, where and how, and if someone kept hitting someone else and they didn't go down, etc. To many of us, it is about dominance, and this is how we keep track.

Maybe I am weird, I also remember every shot of lot's of fights for years afterwards.

Spear walls are boring to be in and watch.

g-

[St. George]

Your Grace,

I was much touched by your obvious sincerity and passion, and you make an excellent point about SCA culture, which was barely touched upon before. But by now you probably notice that I often need help to understand what people say. So I hope you will forgive me if I ask you a question about the last part of the post above.

What is the form of the Ideal SCA warrior?

how is this defined? by whom? the ideal of someone in particular or a consensus? if by consensus, by the consensus of whom? perhaps it is custom? success in the field? tradition?

I was under the impression that Ideal indicates that it relates to an idea, something that resides in a mind. So whose mind is this idea in?


Respectfully,

Rowan

The ideal SCA warrior is a sword wielder (and to lesser degrees all other weapons forms)- reference the invitation to the first party. The costume that people choose to wear can be from any culture that is sword wielder friendly, but that culture is much less important than the fact that they are sword wielders. Reference that there are many knights who have unidentifiable cultures as personas, but they are nonetheless an SCA Knight because they fulfill the tenets and ideals of our group's culture. Further, consider that I can change my costume, but I remain a KSCA. It doesn't matter if I choose to be a Magyar, Roman, Frenchman, whatever... me >George< remains a KSCA because I have fulfilled those requirements. Likewise, I can change my SCA name, and I still remain a KSCA.

Take a look at the SCA for what it is, and not what it necessarily wants to be- we have achieved a lot and come a long way since very humble beginnings.

Stop "Dream-ing" for a second and see where we have gotten to after 40 or so years of active playing. We are at the same point as corporations that have grown just a little too big and are outgrowing their market and management style. We need an adjustment in corporate attitude based on this. One way is to change the way people fundamentally look at the SCA- what the hell are we really doing? Are we a recreation group or a themse sport and costume party. Another is to consider how we operate- Kingdoms, size of Kingdom, BoD operations, etc. Both of these questions could potentially shed some light on how many SCA based problems could be solved including those regarding CA.

g-

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Thanks for straightening me out, Russ. Sir Corby was wrong and you are right. The vast majority of men-at-arms of Europe who left archery to the archers, or disdained it as less than valiant, they were wrong as well.

I'm sorry for trying to apply Charney's law. Oh, I forgot! Shooting arrows at people is an additional knightly skill. I get it now. Thank you for this clarification.

Again, I don't hate combat archery or combat archers. However, I am fighting off a deep depression from some idiotic stunt I pulled recently. I apologize for being a dick. I'll stay away from this thread because I'm just not very rational when it comes to this topic.

[Joseph]

does it look fun to you?

If that was truly how all CA was I'd be first in line to want it out of the game.
The video showed me an archer who picks poor targets.
They are not being helpful to their team aside from killing someone who was already going to die (especially in the case of shooting the legged fighter)
I wish it had audio to see if the archer was being instructed.
IF that archer was just aimlessly with no one calling for them, walking around doing that then its the commanders fault for not using the CA to take out better targets.

[InsaneIrish]

If that was truly how all CA was I'd be first in line to want it out of the game.
The video showed me an archer who picks poor targets.
They are not being helpful to their team aside from killing someone who was already going to die (especially in the case of shooting the legged fighter)
I wish it had audio to see if the archer was being instructed.
IF that archer was just aimlessly with no one calling for them, walking around doing that then its the commanders fault for not using the CA to take out better targets.

No, that is pretty much EXACTLY how CA is played in the SCA. Variations on the theme are "teams" of 2 or more archers working together to pick off targets.

[Palymar]

Then Sir Corby straightened me out...forever.

And Sir Vitus straightened me out. And since then I have never fired a CA in combat.

Before that, I shot all the time. Certainly not out of fear of fighting, but because is was so effective. Now I just encourage others to shoot.

If I ever won the lottery, I would raise a levy of archers - at least 20, dressed in my livery, all armed with the best CA equipment to be found. Take them to Pennsic, GW and Estrella and have them march out as a unit, shoot as a unit and maybe end up dying as a unit. And they would look good doing it.

[Thorstenn]

I was there, it was FUN. I was on a pro/am Paintball team, now I run a MilSim Airsoft team. There FUN too, but there not heavy combat with archery.

The best way to take archery out of a battle, dont stand there.


Thorstenn.

this is a pretty good rendition of CA at gulfwars..

part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StkyajKkku0

part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LsWGiFs ... re=related

does it look fun to you? reminds me of paintball using the 1st generation splatmasters.

[Joseph]

If that was truly how all CA was I'd be first in line to want it out of the game.
The video showed me an archer who picks poor targets.
They are not being helpful to their team aside from killing someone who was already going to die (especially in the case of shooting the legged fighter)
I wish it had audio to see if the archer was being instructed.
IF that archer was just aimlessly with no one calling for them, walking around doing that then its the commanders fault for not using the CA to take out better targets.

No, that is pretty much EXACTLY how CA is played in the SCA. Variations on the theme are "teams" of 2 or more archers working together to pick off targets.

Weird, I guess Lord Simon is then the sole assassin/sniper CA in all of the SCA. Cool for him, sucks the rest of the CA world is too busy killing fun and not achieving any real progress.
Oh well, one day when the commanders realize what a tool the CA they have is it will change.That or they will face up against some CA who actually want to do more then take out shieldman and eazy targets...

[Sir Varus]

Joseph,

Part of the key here is that in period, archers would generally not have been used as snipers. They shot as groups from mostly-defensive positions. Getting that close to the combat generally meant that the arrows were spent, the supply wagon was empty, on fire or just too damned far away, and the swords, falchions, daggers, etc., were out and working.

There is much evidence that archers were stout fighters with steel as well as bow, and got into the thick of things fairly regularly, but little evidence of the sniper mentality that has descended on our CA community. Long- and short-range volley fire, or even free-fire at period ranges would certainly go some way to reducing knightly angst with archers.

Varus - East

[audax]

That we're your well-loved fellow Ansteorrans?

OK, I've only read the last 50+ replies in this thread, but there've probably been over a thousand I've read in nearly 11 years here on the AA.

I once bought a full kit of CA gear, and got authorized for it, but even when I was still getting out and fighting a bit, never used it. I thought it would be cool. Later, I just decided I wasn't interested in it, then in large part because of the hassles I saw involved in it.

Now, should I get active in heavy fighting this year as I hope to, my hope is to become a competent heavy weapons fighter. I wouldn't mind shooting some target archery on the side, but the one-against-one or even group fighting is what appeals.

OT, but if some of our 21rst century leaders had to think they might have to face their foes over three feet of cold steel, I think we'd have a different caliber of leader!


Val

I'm from Texas. Just imagine what I think about Oklahoma.

As Ansteorrans you are my beloved and noble kinsmen.

As Okies, well all I got ot say is FIGHT TEXAS FIGHT!

[audax]

Audax:

Oh and that 12 foot pike thing must be a Western thing. We only use nine footers in Ansteorra.

I double checked, and we (Ansteorra) don't have a rule against them, we just conform to the society standard (12 ft.).

Unless you mean that nobody really uses them much; the only time I've personally ever seen one used was a couple BAMs ago when Sir Corwin used one to clear the stairs.

Dat's what I mean. Not that there is a law against them just that no one or very few use them.

[Valstarr Hawkwind]

Audax,

I literally BOLed at your reply.. I started a thread a year or two ago on state rivalries and how they compare in the SCA.. others posted some of theirs, but I'm still not sure there's any more happy of a union of two such rival states anywhere else in the Known Worlde, as Oklahoma and Texas!

I hope to meet you in person at an event, and see Morgan again, plus a lot of the Ansteorrans that post here I've never met.


Val

P.S. Go Sooners!!!

[maxntropy]

So hey... why ain't there no combat archery in rapier melee?

I'm just saying... Why not share the joy?

Max Von Halstern

[Valstarr Hawkwind]

Don't we/didn't we have rapier battles with CA in them in Ansteorra? IIRC, there was a more stringent limit on the type of arrow head that could be used.

Someone please correct me if I'm in error.


Val

[Thorstenn]

It was tried at Gulf Wars a few years ago. They complained that they hit to hard.

Thorstenn.

So hey... why ain't there no combat archery in rapier melee?

I'm just saying... Why not share the joy?

Max Von Halstern

[Baron Alejandro]

So hey... why ain't there no combat archery in rapier melee?

I'm just saying... Why not share the joy?

Max Von Halstern

Max,

There is. Ask Antonio from Black Diamond, or go to the war that Sacred Stone has been holding recently.

[Saritor]

So hey... why ain't there no combat archery in rapier melee?

I'm just saying... Why not share the joy?

Rubber band guns, man. Rubber band guns.

The only bonus is that you get to stand in a line, pick someone off, and then keep fighting.

At Estrella this year, though, there were more than a few folks doing RBG only and picking people off.

A few years ago at Estrella, we put all of our RBGs and shots (since we're scenario-limited on shots) in to a single unit of fusilliers and sent them to clear corridors for us to charge through. Worked beautifully. Haven't really used the tactic much since, but it's a damned fine idea.

[maxntropy]

There is. Ask Antonio from Black Diamond, or go to the war that Sacred Stone has been holding recently.

I was actually mostly kidding. What with all the discussion about fighter vs. rapier communities/cultures and the fighter vs. combat archery thread... I figured putting the two great tastes (rapier and combat archery) together would be an extra special treat.