Combat Archery: Why is it so hated?

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:50 am

It's interesting to see the varied reasons some people don't like CA.

1) Safety

2) "Game balance"

3) Historical (Would the nobility had used archery like this historically)

4) Societal (Does CA go against the "spirit" of SCA combat community?)

Did I miss anything?

.

LOGOS · Post by **LOGOS** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:32 am

Saritor wrote:
maxntropy wrote:So hey... why ain't there no combat archery in rapier melee?

I'm just saying... Why not share the joy?

Rubber band guns, man. Rubber band guns.

The only bonus is that you get to stand in a line, pick someone off, and then keep fighting.

At Estrella this year, though, there were more than a few folks doing RBG only and picking people off.

A few years ago at Estrella, we put all of our RBGs and shots (since we're scenario-limited on shots) in to a single unit of fusilliers and sent them to clear corridors for us to charge through. Worked beautifully. Haven't really used the tactic much since, but it's a damned fine idea.

Yep. I have a pair of matched saddle pistols - haven't used them in years. Rapier melees are an abomination and I never do them. Yeah, you can use a Formula One car in the Baja 500, but why would you? I should probably give them to somebody who will use them. That being said, when I did melees, I never minded getting shot, that's the nature of the game.

Ludial · Post by **Ludial** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:23 pm

Someone popped me with a crossbow and you could see the duke make a face, then a moment after he was popped in the chest as well.
We were both deprived of a contest that couled have been the highlight of an event.

0_o
pffffffHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Man, I wish I was one of those archers. This is one of the reasons I want to do CA - I get to pop the posh, honor-blabbering dukes and whatnot without allowing them to get to me :twisted:

Although, considering my inclination towards blade-dancing and dirty tricks, they won't get to "face" me even in close combat. I pride myself in being a coward and fighting smart.
Honor is for pussies.

Saritor · Post by **Saritor** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:53 pm

Ludial wrote:0_o
pffffffHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Man, I wish I was one of those archers. This is one of the reasons I want to do CA - I get to pop the posh, honor-blabbering dukes and whatnot without allowing them to get to me
Although, considering my inclination towards blade-dancing and dirty tricks, they won't get to "face" me even in close combat. I pride myself in being a coward and fighting smart.
Honor is for pussies.

Well, there you go.

Seven pages later, a stereotype emerges.

If this were on the front page, think of the time it could have saved us! Or the entertaining flame war it could have provided. Hrm. Tough call...

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:02 pm

Yeah...

Of all the CA people I know, NONE of them are as described here.

No "Happy Dances"
No whining about taking a hit (well one, and he doesn't whine, he has an old Military neck injury.)

And most of them would rather loose arrows in a group than be snipers.

I think that CA is just like the rest of the SCA, ONE bad apple (substitute CA for any bad stereotype Garb Police, Armor Snob, Stick Jock) and suddenly the word starts to spread that all CA are crybaby, spoil sports.

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:22 pm

Saritor wrote:Well, there you go.

Seven pages later, a stereotype emerges.

If this were on the front page, think of the time it could have saved us! Or the entertaining flame war it could have provided. Hrm. Tough call...

No, not a stereotype. Just a troll.

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:30 pm

I failed to accurately describe the Iron Lords: they fought not merely as horse crossbowmen, but also in close combat. As do most of the nobles in the Song of the Cathar Wars. But even here, in southern France, the prejudice against missiles and archers per se doesn't exist:

Laisse 188:

(Numerous fighting described, much of it precisely the knightly sort that would make folks REAL happy to read)

And the great count of Comminges, tried and true, had a crossbow bent --gladly they brought it to him! -- set to it a point of fine-tempered steel, drew, considered, took aim and hit Sir Guy de Monfort, whom he could see in the front ranks. So hard did the bolt strike the damascened mail that it drove in through silken surcoat and ribs and out the other side. Down fell Sir Guy and they carried him away.

Comminges here is not injured or unable to fight -- it is merely a tool he uses. Some jeering follows, and descriptions of fight involving hard blows given and received, flying javelins, crossbow bolts, etcetera. Again, I strongly recommend the source for those not totally focused on the 14/15c HYW-style cult of chivalry.

EDIT: I understand that my participation thus far is truly tangential to the primary focus of the thread. I just want to provide additional information to balance out the arguments that have been made regarding historicity.

Ludial · Post by **Ludial** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:53 pm

Saritor wrote:
Ludial wrote:0_o
pffffffHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Man, I wish I was one of those archers. This is one of the reasons I want to do CA - I get to pop the posh, honor-blabbering dukes and whatnot without allowing them to get to me
Although, considering my inclination towards blade-dancing and dirty tricks, they won't get to "face" me even in close combat. I pride myself in being a coward and fighting smart.
Honor is for pussies.

Well, there you go.

Seven pages later, a stereotype emerges.

If this were on the front page, think of the time it could have saved us! Or the entertaining flame war it could have provided. Hrm. Tough call...

seriously, I wish more archers were like me. we'd have shooting duels, it's a hell of a lot more fun(and requires much more skill) than a bunch of wannabes bashing at each other for the sake of their own over inflated egos.

As for the late part, I discovered the forum and registered only yesterday :sad:

Oh, and MJBlazek, I don't do the happy dance when I get a good shot, I just take a note of it and in the meantime look for my next target.

and I'm not a spoil sport, I just like to win through wits and skill, not by measuring my dick with others, cuz seriously, all this showing off with garb and "look at me, I'm such a MANIMAL!" just pisses off.

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:06 pm

Showing off with garb?
Oh.. do you mean looking HISTORICAL?

Ludial · Post by **Ludial** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:10 pm

MJBlazek wrote:Showing off with garb?
Oh.. do you mean looking HISTORICAL?
What do you wear? Lacrosse gear?

you can look historical without being posh. I personally prefer leather and rough looking iron.
on the practical side, I like it when people on the other side wear ridiculous colors, polished steel and feathers - makes them better targets. There's a reason why a peacock is so colorful and a peahen looks like something the cat dragged in; it has to do with survival. Call the archer a tool of natural selection

Chris G. · Post by **Chris G.** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:14 pm

Ludial wrote:you can look historical without being posh.

But why would you want to when you can look fabulous. Sure you may draw a few more arrows, but thats a small price to pay. Besides, fancy duds give you +2 to dodge.

Ludial · Post by **Ludial** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:18 pm

Chris G. wrote:
Ludial wrote:you can look historical without being posh.

But why would you want to when you can look fabulous. Sure you may draw a few more arrows, but thats a small price to pay. Besides, fancy duds give you +2 to dodge.

bollocks! less crap to burden me is what helps me dodge! I'm a friggin steppe nomad! GIVE ME LEATHER OR GIVE ME DEATH! :lol:

which is why my fav weapons are a bow and a scimitar

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:30 pm

Gotta love the internet commandos.

Ludial, if there are fewer combat archery senarios at some events - you are part of the problem.

.

Ludial · Post by **Ludial** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:48 pm

Dilan wrote:Gotta love the internet commandos.

Ludial, if there are fewer combat archery senarios at some events - you are part of the problem.

.

no, the problem are the people who think that archery is a problem. If I hit you cuz you didn't pay attention, it's your fault, not mine(hint: War isn't fair, unlike what the snobs think).

Seriously, man, with that mentality any capoeirista would hand your ass over to you any time of the week.

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:02 pm

Nobody feed the troll.

Ludial · Post by **Ludial** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:05 pm

Baron Alejandro wrote:Nobody feed the troll.

oh, so defending archery makes me a troll, eh?
seriously, pussies

Saritor · Post by **Saritor** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:05 pm

Baron Alejandro wrote:Nobody feed the troll.

Aww! We just got the new toy, Dad! Can't we play with it a little while longer?

Ludial · Post by **Ludial** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:15 pm

one little knight, two little knight, three little knight/
man, this is so funny;
four little knight, five little knight, six little knight/
it's WAAAY better than shooting at a bunny;
seven little knight, eight little knight, nine little knight/
I laugh at them cuz they're not runny!
Ten little pincushion knights

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:48 pm

OK, I'm addressing this from a Midrealm perspective, so bear with me.

Given that CA is used in only 1/3 of melee senarios (most of the time in the Midrealm)....

And that for some portrayals, archery would have been used as a weapon of war by the nobility / elite warrior class.

CA has been a part of SCA melee combat since the very early days -

This leaves really 2 issues -

Is combat archery unsafe in it's current format? If so, how can this be addressed?

Is combat archery unbalanced, as compared to other weapon forms in the SCA (limitations vs. advantages). If so, what fixes could easily put in place that would swing the balance the other direction?

.

Ludial · Post by **Ludial** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:06 pm

erm... this reminds me of some forums(about "realistic" computer games) where there are discussions raging about nerfing this and this weapon cuz they're unbalanced, instead of simply going for the realistic thing... just makes me wonder

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:41 pm

To adress these issues seperately -

In terms of safety, my personal concerns deal with failed / damaged arrows or shafts, and the inability for anyone to control/check the weapon once it has been loosed (especially on fields where the spectators are in the same line as the field of fire.

The first is pretty easy to address, IMO - all shafts inspected before each battle, and no shafts may be gleaned and re-shot.

The second is more difficult - outside of limiting the fields of fire, and not allowing non-combatants directly behind the allowed fields of fire.

Neither of these is perfect, but does begin to cover those two issues.

.

BobKnight · Post by **BobKnight** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:58 pm

Ludial wrote:
Baron Alejandro wrote:Nobody feed the troll.

oh, so defending archery makes me a troll, eh?
seriously, pussies

Fallacy.

Defending it using a troll's method does not equal to defending it overall.

You are not debating in good faith and thus we have every right to treat you as a vandal.

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:58 pm

In terms of "balance", here are the issues people seems to have, and my ideas on "fixes" -

CA bows are ahistorically weak - this allows archers to fire at an artifically high rate of fire (especially some of the crossbows used). This has also created (intended or not) the "nuke arrow" - I would suggest upping the minimum poundage for bows. I don't beleive this will make the arrows unsafe, as they simply do not have the mass. They'll sure sting you if they hit an unarmored spot, but no more than a sword blow.

The low powered bow have, in some cases, altered the calibration for arrows to very far lower than any other weapon. My suggestion is simple - 1) Make them hit like a single hand thrust. 2) Let the guy getting hit decide if he has been hit good (barring obvious rhino-ing). In other words, treat them like every other weapon in SCA armored combat.

The other ideas I posted earlier are really more to improve (IMO) the on the field appearance (get rid of the 5 gallon bucket quiver!) and maintain what I feel is the spirit of SCA melee.

The SOCIAL / INTERACTION issues? Whole 'nother kettle of cod there.

.

Vladimir · Post by **Vladimir** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:12 pm

Ludial wrote: instead of simply going for the realistic thing...

You mean like letting Aaron (or any other plate clad fighter) walk up to you ignoring your arrows and tent peg you? After all, you are only firing a 30-35 pounder.

I for one would be fine with "if an arrow strikes a ferrous plate of metal, or an area backed by a ferous plate of metal, ie a brig, it does not count as a strike" Of course, my brass isn't ferrous, so it would (unfortunately) not count, but a steel lamellar would. I'm fine with that, no change for me. But it would neatly avoid the whole "aluminum is metal) argument.

It would be simple to implement, Fighter gets hit by an arrow. He looks and sees that he was hit in his plate legs. Fighter continues. Fighter gets hit again, this time in his leather torso, fighter has to go res.

Bob H · Post by **Bob H** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:32 pm

Baron Alejandro wrote:Nobody feed the troll.

Now I remember why I don't want your job here. :wink:

Say, what about them Cubbies? Think they'll win the pennant this year?

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:37 pm

You should SEE some of the PMs I have gotten!

montanaflash23 · Post by **montanaflash23** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:40 pm

[quote="Dilan"]

CA bows are ahistorically weak - this allows archers to fire at an artifically high rate of fire (especially some of the crossbows used).

.[/quote

From what i've read, a historical archer could usually fire 8 arrows in a minute, and sometimes the really good archer could fire 10 or more arrows in a single minute. And these bows aren't weak bows, they'd have to be strong enoug hto go through whatever armour was currently being worn. But seeing as i've never shot my own bow during any battles of sorts yet (it's only a 50 pound bow), i may not know what i'm talking about. I've never seen how fast a combat archer can fire.

Bob H · Post by **Bob H** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:42 pm

Baron Alejandro wrote:You should SEE some of the PMs I have gotten!

I would hazard a guess that "off with 'is 'ead" is a common recommendation. "Enter, Talking" is only good when it's in the script and it's very well played.

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:52 pm

montanaflash23 wrote:From what i've read, a historical archer could usually fire 8 arrows in a minute, and sometimes the really good archer could fire 10 or more arrows in a single minute. And these bows aren't weak bows, they'd have to be strong enoug hto go through whatever armour was currently being worn. But seeing as i've never shot my own bow during any battles of sorts yet (it's only a 50 pound bow), i may not know what i'm talking about. I've never seen how fast a combat archer can fire.

Montanaflash23,

What's your source for that? Nothing against you, but I think whatever book you read wasn't checking their facts very well. I've been practicing target archery for less than three months, and I can fire 10 per minute <i>easily</i>. I have been told by people whom I consider reliable (*koff*RUSS MITCHELL*koff*) that rates of up to 60 per minute are attainable.

Again, nothing on you.

Bob H · Post by **Bob H** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:04 pm

Vitus von Atzinger wrote:I don't want CA banned. If I ever get too old to fight, I will GIVE BACK MY BELT, RESIGN FROM THE ORDER OF CHIVALRY and shoot people full of crossbow bolts and laugh my head off while doing it.

Haha, I finally beat Vitus at something ... the race to decrepitude! I win, hahahahacoughcoughcough. I'm there now, brother, as distasteful as I find reality. I don't mean this as an insult to combat archers, but - it is pretty much all I have left. I'd rather be in the CotT, but they don't hire the gimpy. Nor should they.

I've never been a spectator. I got razzed a lot at school for being a nerd because I didn't play sports, but they were wrong. After school I did play sports ... sandlot tackle football, whatever variety of baseball our field du jour could accomodate, tease the rattlesnake, throw dirtclods at the neighbor's mean Doberman, BB gun fights, and a whole host of things that would make Mothers swoon. I just didn't want to watch other people play them, except for strategic reasons if I was going to face them on the field later. To be honest, if all I get out of SCA combat is watching others do it then this pasttime is over for me again as it was once before. You may be the hottest stick the Knowne Worlde has ever seen, but I don't give a rat's ass if all I can do is watch. Sorry, Superman, but I'd as soon be dancing, and those who know me realize the horror with which I regard being pushed into that activity.

But I still won't shoot knights.

I'll agree to it and swear it, provided all the knights agree and swear not to thump archers. That's fair, ain't it Gub'ner?

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:21 pm

I'm talking some of the CA bows I've seen go through inspection point are really light. Like 15 pound kid bows. Archers with crossbows that had a max range under the length of a Pennsic bridge. These inevitably cause archers and marshalls to have to point out when guys get hit.

Conversely, I've seen crossbow and archers who shoot bows that give you NO DOUBT that you've been hit - even in a steel breastplate.

How did historic longbowmen and other archers get their high rates of fire, range and kills? PRACTICE and TRAINING.

.

Chris G. · Post by **Chris G.** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:38 pm

Dilan wrote: My suggestion is simple - 1) Make them hit like a single hand thrust.

A single handed thrust to what/where? The force for a face thrust is not equal to the force for a body thrust.

I don't believe there is a simple solution to the problem of combat archery when there isn't even agreement to what the problem is. But you are probably on the right track, at least offering a solution to what you see as the problem rather than just complaining about some nebulous issue.

There isn't enough control on the part of the archer to truly regulate the force an arrow will hit with. For the same reason that a single hand thrust can become "excessive" when a fighter steps into it, the varying ranges and conditions of the field (i.e. wind) will make it nearly impossible for all shots to hit with the same force, even if poundage, arrow weight, spine weight, balance, and all other factors were made equal.

montanaflash23 · Post by **montanaflash23** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:25 pm

Baron Alejandro wrote:
montanaflash23 wrote:I can fire 10 per minute <i>easily</i>. I have been told by people whom I consider reliable (*koff*RUSS MITCHELL*koff*) that rates of up to 60 per minute are attainable.

Well, like i said, i could be wrong, an' i apparently am. I've been shootin' my bow for a while, an' i guess i'm just that slow. Thanks for tellin' me though, i've always kinda wondered 'bout that. Who's Russ mitchell?

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:41 pm

That would be me. Hi! I do a little shooting with Hungarian stuff when time allows (sadly, that is not much lately, and I hope to improve that significantly soon).

Alejandro, technique is a very, VERY important factor. I have seen a guy literally draw an arrow per second. Terrifying. I typically shoot about 18 per minute: but the steppe method is very different, and generally faster than the western technique, albeit less accurate (the placement of the quiver, the alignment of the arrow on the nock, etcetera, let alone the techniques for holding multiple arrows at once). For hunters using back quivers, etc., rate of fire can also be quite quick... but many westerners didn't use quivers at all, and would need to make larger movements per shot, lowering the rate of fire.

montanaflash23 · Post by **montanaflash23** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:08 am

Ah, gotcha. Thanks.