Combat Archery: Why is it so hated?

Violen · Post by **Violen** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:54 pm

Why are you guys feeding the troll?

This larper will never play SCA, hes just here to get you guys riled up. Seriously!

None of us will ever see him on the field.

Ludial · Post by **Ludial** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:55 pm

Vladimir wrote:
Oh, I also had a limited practice with the guys on the island last summer, where my suspicion that western fighting styles are to a great extent half-assed was confirmed.

According to S. Matthew Galas in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Volume 6, Number 3, 1997, the schools of martial arts from 1350 -1600 Germany were just as well developed and efficient as their Japanese counterparts. Sadly the article only deals with Germany and Japan.

And I'm not saying that there is no such thing as honor in eastern culture, but they definitely know how to fight better there.

There are certainly many examples of tactics typically thought of as "Eastern" defeating tactics typically thought of as "Western". There are just as many examples of battles going the other direction as well. Terrain and strategic objectives are a huge factor. Light cavalry can be a very good offensive tool, but often makes for a poor method of holding ground once it is taken.

Ludial, you would be better served by making your arguments in a more rational manner. With one exception, your posts have had more in common with a screaming monkey than a human being.

Quote professors who support your argument rather than deriding them as a group as deluded. Refer to journals and documents and experts in the field rather than using a video game as source material. Tell us how many years of martial arts experience you have, which schools, rather than + years.

You have stated that you have no interest in the kind of renown many of us here strive for. That is fine, each of us plays a variant of the game in his/her own way. However, please at least attempt to be respectful. Those who lashed back at you have been asked to tone it down and back off a bit. It is your turn to reciprocate.

point taken again.
Although I want to make it clear that when I say something in general, it's what it is - general. That means that when I'm talking about a group of people, I don't mean all, but only most of them. Same goes for a group of anything. Half-swording and swashbuckling had me charmed the first time I saw them and have kept me thus since(I suppose this can include the German fighting manuals; I am somewhat familiar with them).

Vladimir · Post by **Vladimir** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:57 pm

What pisses me off is the people who can't take a hit to the back without yapping about honor and such.

The rules do not permit me to hit you in the back. Now, if you shoot me in the back I won't cry about it. I'll walk off the field or go rez.

However, I'm sure even you can see how frustrating it would be for a man who studied this form of martial activity to be struck in the back by someone whom he is not allowed to strike in a like fashion.

However, it is an unlikely scenario.

If you are behind me then you are behind us. If you are behind us then it is very likely that there are a whole bunch of you behind us. If there are a whole bunch of you behind us then we are pretty much screwed anyway and your arrow isn't going to make much of a difference.

Ludial · Post by **Ludial** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:57 pm

Violen wrote:Why are you guys feeding the troll?

This larper will never play SCA, hes just here to get you guys riled up. Seriously!

None of us will ever see him on the field.

that is debatable;
and I' not a larper; enough with the insults, okay? :lol:

audax · Post by **audax** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:00 pm

Ludial wrote:
Violen wrote:Why are you guys feeding the troll?

This larper will never play SCA, hes just here to get you guys riled up. Seriously!

None of us will ever see him on the field.

that is debatable;
and I' not a larper; enough with the insults, okay?

NO, Not okay. YOu, in particular, give archers everywhere a worse name than they might have already had. You do yourself and anyone else who wants to be an archer a disservice by your words and actions. The insults directed at you are a direct and natural consequence of your behavior. YOu have done neither yourself nor SCA combat archers any favors.

You came into what had been up til then a pretty civil discussion about combat archery in the SCA, specifically, and spewed troll dung all over it. You expressed hatred of all things most of us hold dear and bragged of your cowardice. You based all your assumtions on videos games and one limited practice in the SCA. Pure asshattery.

YOu clearly do not understand the rules or the spirit of the SCA and you have no place here.

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:04 pm

You insult us... so you must take insults in kind.
If you were aware of your surroundings you'd realize that

Violen · Post by **Violen** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:05 pm

1. When you make a general statement about a group, how are we to decide which of us you are referring to and which you arent? I mean, are you referring to me but not Baron Alejandro? Making General statements is a bad idea. Just a friendly observation

2. When you use terms that are vague or open ended like "I suppose this can include the German fighting manuals; I am somewhat familiar with them"

What does that mean? I am somewhat familiar with China. On a map. That dosent mean ive been there.

You are presenting yourself in a fashion that makes you look as if you are uneducated, and insulting. It is hard for anyone to take you seriously when you say that what we do is half assed, and then you reveal that you are not as educated in a subject as you would like us to think.

Please reconsider your tone and your direction when posting here. There are a great many people on this forum that love what they do and they love how they get to play in their Living History setting.

Insulting them as a group is a bad idea.

I'll tell you what,

Get authorized. If you can make it to lilies you can stay in a tent with my shire and we will help get you through the war. You can hang out and do Melee, tournies, CA, or shoot at those goddamned northerners with my dad and his Trebuchet.

I would go back and read what you have posted and try to be objective.

Have you even talked to the senechal of your local group yet?

Ludial wrote:point taken again.
Although I want to make it clear that when I say something in general, it's what it is - general. That means that when I'm talking about a group of people, I don't mean all, but only most of them. Same goes for a group of anything. Half-swording and swashbuckling had me charmed the first time I saw them and have kept me thus since(I suppose this can include the German fighting manuals; I am somewhat familiar with them).

Amanda M · Post by **Amanda M** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:06 pm

Violen wrote:Why are you guys feeding the troll?

This larper will never play SCA, hes just here to get you guys riled up. Seriously!

None of us will ever see him on the field.

Cuz the only way to make is clear to someone that their douchebaggery is unwelcome here or in our game is to say so.

Ludial · Post by **Ludial** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:08 pm

Vladimir wrote:
What pisses me off is the people who can't take a hit to the back without yapping about honor and such.

The rules do not permit me to hit you in the back. Now, if you shoot me in the back I won't cry about it. I'll walk off the field or go rez.

However, I'm sure even you can see how frustrating it would be for a man who studied this form of martial activity to be struck in the back by someone whom he is not allowed to strike in a like fashion.

However, it is an unlikely scenario.

If you are behind me then you are behind us. If you are behind us then it is very likely that there are a whole bunch of you behind us. If there are a whole bunch of you behind us then we are pretty much screwed anyway and your arrow isn't going to make much of a difference.

now that sounds much better.
have just one question, though - what happens if you're a shielf-bearer and in order to bypass your shield in close combat, I get behind you?

Violen · Post by **Violen** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:09 pm

I understand your point of view, but

If you keep feeding a fire, does it not grow?

let a fire die and it goes out.

audax · Post by **audax** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:10 pm

Isabella E wrote:
Violen wrote:Why are you guys feeding the troll?

This larper will never play SCA, hes just here to get you guys riled up. Seriously!

None of us will ever see him on the field.

Cuz the only way to make is clear to someone that their douchebaggery is unwelcome here or in our game is to say so.

Yep.

audax · Post by **audax** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:11 pm

Violen wrote:I understand your point of view, but

If you keep feeding a fire, does it not grow?

let a fire die and it goes out.

Not if I thorw a blanket over it and beat the crap out of it with a sandbag.

Amanda M · Post by **Amanda M** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:11 pm

Ludial wrote:
Vladimir wrote:
What pisses me off is the people who can't take a hit to the back without yapping about honor and such.

The rules do not permit me to hit you in the back. Now, if you shoot me in the back I won't cry about it. I'll walk off the field or go rez.

However, I'm sure even you can see how frustrating it would be for a man who studied this form of martial activity to be struck in the back by someone whom he is not allowed to strike in a like fashion.

However, it is an unlikely scenario.

If you are behind me then you are behind us. If you are behind us then it is very likely that there are a whole bunch of you behind us. If there are a whole bunch of you behind us then we are pretty much screwed anyway and your arrow isn't going to make much of a difference.

now that sounds much better.
have just one question, though - what happens if you're a shielf-bearer and in order to bypass your shield in close combat, I get behind you?

Then you either obey the rules of the list or everyone around you makes damn sure your card is pulled and you never fight again.

Owyn · Post by **Owyn** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:12 pm

audax wrote:No one can watch all sides of themselves at the same time and you know it.IN fact, you take advantage of this fact. If you shoot someone in the back you are the basest sort of coward and a scumbag to boot.

Ludial wrote:I definitely will not miss the opportunity to hit in the back someone who keeps being unaware of his surroundings, but I'm not intenting to endanger anyone's safety.

Vladimir wrote:The rules do not permit me to hit you in the back. Now, if you shoot me in the back I won't cry about it. I'll walk off the field or go rez.

To get back on topic a bit... Folks, if someone shoots you from behind with CA, you do the same thing you do if someone whacks you in the head with a sword from behind - you do not take the blow. CA follows the same rules of engagement as HWC.

From the EK CA manual:
"5.1 know that the legal targets for arrow strikes are the same as those which apply to thrusts. No firing from behind."

The SCA Marshal's manual is a bit less specific in its wording, but also implies that CA must follow the same rules for determining engagement. If someone is not engaged with your line, and you shoot at them, they don't need to take the blow. Someone who fires at you from fifteen feet behind is certainly not engaged. So ignore the shot.

audax · Post by **audax** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:12 pm

Ludial wrote:
Vladimir wrote:
What pisses me off is the people who can't take a hit to the back without yapping about honor and such.

The rules do not permit me to hit you in the back. Now, if you shoot me in the back I won't cry about it. I'll walk off the field or go rez.

However, I'm sure even you can see how frustrating it would be for a man who studied this form of martial activity to be struck in the back by someone whom he is not allowed to strike in a like fashion.

However, it is an unlikely scenario.

If you are behind me then you are behind us. If you are behind us then it is very likely that there are a whole bunch of you behind us. If there are a whole bunch of you behind us then we are pretty much screwed anyway and your arrow isn't going to make much of a difference.

now that sounds much better.
have just one question, though - what happens if you're a shielf-bearer and in order to bypass your shield in close combat, I get behind you?

So in addition to your mad video game and aikicapoeirado skills, you claim powers of teleportation?

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:14 pm

Ludial wrote:
Vladimir wrote:
What pisses me off is the people who can't take a hit to the back without yapping about honor and such.

The rules do not permit me to hit you in the back. Now, if you shoot me in the back I won't cry about it. I'll walk off the field or go rez.

However, I'm sure even you can see how frustrating it would be for a man who studied this form of martial activity to be struck in the back by someone whom he is not allowed to strike in a like fashion.

However, it is an unlikely scenario.

If you are behind me then you are behind us. If you are behind us then it is very likely that there are a whole bunch of you behind us. If there are a whole bunch of you behind us then we are pretty much screwed anyway and your arrow isn't going to make much of a difference.

now that sounds much better.
have just one question, though - what happens if you're a shielf-bearer and in order to bypass your shield in close combat, I get behind you?

You're also kind of missing basic field strategies.

You're job as an archer, and I don't care what culture be it east or west you are, is to stay far away.

If a line of shields has gotten so close to you, that you have to move to get a shot, it doesn't matter. It's over, your side has lost. By the time you moved around to the other side of the front line you have probably already been killed, or all of your commanders and possibly king has been killed.

If you really want to play the part of a coward you better get used to switching sides and having everybody REALLY hate you.

Ludial · Post by **Ludial** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:29 pm

well, seems like I can comply with most of the rules, but there's still the same question bugging me - If the unit I'm with is behind another unit, how do we engage them without violating the rules? Because I've seen some vids of forest battles where the two lines are mostly static for half an hour, with people just taking the occasional jab at someone and just standing there otherwise.

and no, I don't claim to be able to teleport :lol:

I just prefer to be a mobile fighter instead of a static one.

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:34 pm

Ludial wrote:well, seems like I can comply with most of the rules, but there's still the same question bugging me - If the unit I'm with is behind another unit, how do we engage them without violating the rules? Because I've seen some vids of forest battles where the two lines are mostly static for half an hour, with people just taking the occasional jab at someone and just standing there otherwise.

and no, I don't claim to be able to teleport I just prefer to be a mobile fighter instead of a static one.

If you are going to be a combat archer you are always going to be behind a unit... YOUR OWN UNIT.
You will stay to the rear, behind a shield wall. You will fire past that shield wall.
If you start pegging guys in the back, you will be hitting YOUR OWN SIDE.

Now, even for cowards and sell swords I think thats a pretty silly thing to do don't you?

Ludial · Post by **Ludial** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:34 pm

You're also kind of missing basic field strategies.

You're job as an archer, and I don't care what culture be it east or west you are, is to stay far away.

If a line of shields has gotten so close to you, that you have to move to get a shot, it doesn't matter. It's over, your side has lost. By the time you moved around to the other side of the front line you have probably already been killed, or all of your commanders and possibly king has been killed.

If you really want to play the part of a coward you better get used to switching sides and having everybody REALLY hate you.

I intend to take an active part in the fighting, which includes close combat. And if a shield wall gets close to me, I'll just flank them. Enough with the "archers are weak wusses" stereotype, eh?

Ludial · Post by **Ludial** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:37 pm

MJBlazek wrote:
Ludial wrote:well, seems like I can comply with most of the rules, but there's still the same question bugging me - If the unit I'm with is behind another unit, how do we engage them without violating the rules? Because I've seen some vids of forest battles where the two lines are mostly static for half an hour, with people just taking the occasional jab at someone and just standing there otherwise.

and no, I don't claim to be able to teleport I just prefer to be a mobile fighter instead of a static one.

If you are going to be a combat archer you are always going to be behind a unit... YOUR OWN UNIT.
You will stay to the rear, behind a shield wall. You will fire past that shield wall.
If you start pegging guys in the back, you will be hitting YOUR OWN SIDE.

Now, even for cowards and sell swords I think thats a pretty silly thing to do don't you?

no, I'll be running around the flanks, shooting at people and drawing the sword whenever needed. enough with the stereotypes, I said, an English longbowman also took part in the melee(you should check the thread about light fighters)

DeCalmont · Post by **DeCalmont** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:37 pm

Wow, don't check in during most of the weekend and this happens. I'm close to just calling this thread done.

All involved need to post and respond in an adult manner please. Personally as a long time advocate and practicing Combat Archer I'm really disappointed with several of the comments from both sides of the fence and some of a supposed Combat Archer. I will not tolerate deliberate baiting of the other side. If you cannot make your point with reasoned arguments please refrain from even commenting then.

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:38 pm

Ludial wrote:
You're also kind of missing basic field strategies.

You're job as an archer, and I don't care what culture be it east or west you are, is to stay far away.

If a line of shields has gotten so close to you, that you have to move to get a shot, it doesn't matter. It's over, your side has lost. By the time you moved around to the other side of the front line you have probably already been killed, or all of your commanders and possibly king has been killed.

If you really want to play the part of a coward you better get used to switching sides and having everybody REALLY hate you.

I intend to take an active part in the fighting, which includes close combat. And if a shield wall gets close to me, I'll just flank them. Enough with the "archers are weak wusses" stereotype, eh?

I NEVER said they were... have you even READ any of the rest of this thread? I SHOOT COMBAT ARCHERY.

If a shield wall gets that close, you won't be able to flank and shoot them. If they get that close you won't be able to because well THE RULES SAY YOU MUST BE A CERTAIN DISTANCE AWAY TO SHOOT THEM.

If you want to be active about it, you will have to drop your bow and fight with a sword, spear, dagger whatever. And WHEN YOU DO you will have to ABIDE BY THE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT PUT FORWARD BY THE SCA.

Ludial · Post by **Ludial** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:40 pm

DeCalmont wrote:Wow, don't check in during most of the weekend and this happens. I'm close to just calling this thread done.

All involved need to post and respond in an adult manner please. Personally as a long time advocate and practicing Combat Archer I'm really disappointed with several of the comments from both sides of the fence and some of a supposed Combat Archer. I will not tolerate deliberate baiting of the other side. If you cannot make your point with reasoned arguments please refrain from even commenting then.

sorry, got carried away, but that's what happens to me when I see people dissing archers. But I haven't yet found a way to deal with such people without dissing them in turn. Any advice would be appreciated.

Ludial · Post by **Ludial** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:42 pm

MJBlazek wrote:
Ludial wrote:
You're also kind of missing basic field strategies.

You're job as an archer, and I don't care what culture be it east or west you are, is to stay far away.

If a line of shields has gotten so close to you, that you have to move to get a shot, it doesn't matter. It's over, your side has lost. By the time you moved around to the other side of the front line you have probably already been killed, or all of your commanders and possibly king has been killed.

If you really want to play the part of a coward you better get used to switching sides and having everybody REALLY hate you.

I intend to take an active part in the fighting, which includes close combat. And if a shield wall gets close to me, I'll just flank them. Enough with the "archers are weak wusses" stereotype, eh?

I NEVER said they were... have you even READ any of the rest of this thread? I SHOOT COMBAT ARCHERY.

If a shield wall gets that close, you won't be able to flank and shoot them. If they get that close you won't be able to because well THE RULES SAY YOU MUST BE A CERTAIN DISTANCE AWAY TO SHOOT THEM.

If you want to be active about it, you will have to drop your bow and fight with a sword, spear, dagger whatever. And WHEN YOU DO you will have to ABIDE BY THE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT PUT FORWARD BY THE SCA.

hence I won't let them get close to me until I run out of arrows. Run(or at least move relatively quickly) and shoot is one of my principles.

Ludial · Post by **Ludial** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:44 pm

you won't be able to because well THE RULES SAY YOU MUST BE A CERTAIN DISTANCE AWAY TO SHOOT THEM.

this is a telltale sign of most overly-zealous people. Plus I saw in another thread(or maybe even this one?) that the minimum distance required is as much is needed for the arrow to leave the bow.

William Lee · Post by **William Lee** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:45 pm

Ludial wrote:I never said anything against safety. Where did you people infer that from? And wanting to roleplay an honorless raider doesn't mean that I won't comply with the general rules of the SCA, it's the whole nobility thing that I can't stand.

And I stopped practising aikido some time ago - I find the concepts of community and individuality in capoeira much more to my liking(although the idea of you getting hit being you own fault also exists in aikido, so there's no difference).

My point is your astounding and willful ignorance of the SCA combat ruleset (and penchant for insulting things you clearly know little to nothing of) is bound to cause any group Knight's Marshal to think very carefully before putting their signature to your authorization--if not outright refuse to authorize you.

Perhaps this will change, once you actually read (and understand) the Rules of the List in the SCA (as well as EK rules). It will certainly change when people who know what they're doing disabuse you of what you currently claim to know. But should you show up with the misconceptions you currently display, I don't like your chances.

Broadway · Post by **Broadway** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:48 pm

Ludial wrote:
sorry, got carried away, but that's what happens to me when I see people dissing archers. But I haven't yet found a way to deal with such people without dissing them in turn. Any advice would be appreciated.

Get armoured up, get skilled enough to best them in honorable combat, with knightly weapons, and then throw a double cheeked wrap shot to their buttocks.

Then, tell them that that was for their comments on archers.

Nissan Maxima · Post by **Nissan Maxima** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:49 pm

This thread makes me happy.

Combat archery sucks threads are a sure sign of spring. Theyr'e like...daffodils.

I like flowers.

Ludial · Post by **Ludial** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:53 pm

Nissan Maxima wrote:This thread makes me happy.

Combat archery sucks threads are a sure sign of spring. Theyr'e like...daffodils.

I like flowers.

I love this.

Dante, does a scimitar count as a "knightly" weapon?

Vladimir · Post by **Vladimir** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:54 pm

Option 1
Develop a thicker skin.

Option 2
Stop caring

Option 3
Wait 5-10 minutes before responding to a post you found "insulting"

The option you picked
Out of those posting here (numbers roughly made up)
50% of the people thought there were problems with CA that could be fixed
25% disliked CA, of that 10% outright insulted it.
25% thought everything was just fine or that the problems were not worth trying to fix
So, in attempting to fire back upon 10% of the archive population you ended up insulting 90% of us.

I will admit, my first impulse was to express my desire to pop your head like an overripe melon. However, since you are not within arms reach of me or a reasonable drive this is not my best option.

It is my hope that you will end up like an old poster here "PoD". When he first arrived he was inflammatory, insulting, and a general pain in the ass. He was also only 19 and full of piss and vinegar. He ended his "Archive Career" (if one can call it that) well respected, because he began showing respect in turn.

mordreth · Post by **mordreth** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:54 pm

Nissan Maxima wrote:This thread makes me happy.

Combat archery sucks threads are a sure sign of spring. Theyr'e like...daffodils.

I like flowers.

I like flowers too, I have my daffodils coming up nicely aroung the house right now.
Course the bulbs were placed onto a deep layer of cowshit last fall, same as always.

Ludial · Post by **Ludial** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:56 pm

Vladimir wrote:Option 1
Develop a thicker skin.

Option 2
Stop caring

Option 3
Wait 5-10 minutes before responding to a post you found "insulting"

The option you picked
Out of those posting here (numbers roughly made up)
50% of the people thought there were problems with CA that could be fixed
25% disliked CA, of that 10% outright insulted it.
25% thought everything was just fine or that the problems were not worth trying to fix
So, in attempting to fire back upon 10% of the archive population you ended up insulting 90% of us.

I will admit, my first impulse was to express my desire to pop your head like an overripe melon. However, since you are not within arms reach of me or a reasonable drive this is not my best option.

It is my hope that you will end up like an old poster here "PoD". When he first arrived he was inflammatory, insulting, and a general pain in the ass. He was also only 19 and full of piss and vinegar. He ended his "Archive Career" (if one can call it that) well respected, because he began showing respect in turn.

same thing happens to me often(hint: it has to do with me being a stereotypical 20 year old :lol:

)

audax · Post by **audax** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:01 pm

Ludial, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Really. Video games and aikido teach nothing as far as SCA tactics are concerned. YOu don't get to make up your own rules and play by them. You'll have your auth card yanked and no one will play with you. Is that your goal?

People with experience are telling you how it works and you keep blowing them off. You will be of no use to anyone with your notions of running all about on the field and somehow magically getting in the opposing backfield without anyone noticing you or being able to do something about you.

Every culture that made use of archery on the battlefield worked together as units, not a bunch of individuals. They were organized and followed the commands of their leader. Mull that for a bit.

No matter where you are or how you got there you have to follow the rules of engagement. Period. You could plink me in that back all day long and I never have to call it.

Remember also that payback is a bitch. YOu'll get what you give. Give honor and respect, you'll get that in return. Act like a jerk and everyone will treat you that way.

St. George · Post by **St. George** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:04 pm

Ludial,

You just have no concept of how SCA combat works on the field. I assure you, that there are heavy fighters who you absolutely would never be able to run away from. Combats are generally short, quick and to the point.

As much as you might want to think that shield walls or static, or that you are somehow going to re-invent the wheel, you won't. Being one of the better known flankers in the SCA, I can assure you that it doesn't happen as often as you want, and rarely would you ever be safe with a bow- even with the intent to draw other weapons, people would be on you and you would get crushed.

There is simply not a large enough number of combat archers to start utilizing the tactics that you are dreaming of.

g-

audax · Post by **audax** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:06 pm

Ludial wrote:
you won't be able to because well THE RULES SAY YOU MUST BE A CERTAIN DISTANCE AWAY TO SHOOT THEM.

this is a telltale sign of most overly-zealous people. Plus I saw in another thread(or maybe even this one?) that the minimum distance required is as much is needed for the arrow to leave the bow.

What is a telltale sign of overly zealous people? That we follow the stated ruleset of the game we play?

Read the SCA rules and the rules of your kingdom. Otherwise, you are again speaking out of school.