What patterns do people want to see in a pattern archive?

[Russ Mitchell]

I would like to see more historical patterns instead of the standard SCA stuff. Also, drawings of profiles and such for historical helmets and other parts would be awesome. Things like the bascinet drawings Mac did with the "historical" vs "modern" theme is fantastic and could be a good way of helping more people produce more period items.

^This.
Articulations aren't exactly difficult (or I have a nack for it, could be either), but I frequently find myself going "buh-whut" on how to put together gear everybody else takes for granted.

[Sean Powell]

this one:

http://www.allenantiques.com/images/Got ... nsOrig.jpg

?

There it is. Thanks to people who kept track of it over the years. It is now on my site. It was used to make:

http://www.allenantiques.com/images/Got ... maller.jpg

So now we have a pattern and the result posted in the same place.

Wade

Wade. Wonderful timing. I picked up some similar elbows and was planning on building myself a new set of arms just like that. I did have 2 quick questions. Did you really get by with 1 lame pattern for the shoulder or is there a slight difference between the upper and lower lame. Also you cut the wrist opening straight rather then longer on the ulnar side. I thought the wrist opening was supposed to be slightly angled. What was your historical influence?

Sean

[wcallen]

Wade. Wonderful timing. I picked up some similar elbows and was planning on building myself a new set of arms just like that. I did have 2 quick questions. Did you really get by with 1 lame pattern for the shoulder or is there a slight difference between the upper and lower lame. Also you cut the wrist opening straight rather then longer on the ulnar side. I thought the wrist opening was supposed to be slightly angled. What was your historical influence?

Sean

I think I posted this somewhere else, but we can get it all in one place.
The pattern for the shoulder "cop" doesn't have the points that line up with the ones on the lames. This is "fixed" afterward by whacking the corners off so that they line up nicely with the points on the lames. We found it easier to line them up nicely with the later trim than to try make the pattern perfect when the cop gets dished a lot more than the lames.
The lames are cut the same initially. Once all of the parts are together a little grinding on the ends makes it all line up nicely.
I think the last time I did some I ended up tapering the lame plates a little bit so that the back ends up wider than the front so that the slots on the back can allow the shoulder to extend while the front is compressing on the leathers.

The cop is dished in the center, then creased, then rolled up and then flaired. If you do everything just right the first time (yea, right), this allows you to do most of the planishing and cleanup when it is easier.

The lames are also dished just a little so that they flow nicely from the cop to the upper arm plate.

Yes, we cut the bottom of the vambrace straight. Why? Because we wanted to. German vambraces appear to be cut a little differently from the typical Italian ones. The cuffs of the gauntlets are longer and more closely fitting, so you can/should actually make the vambraces a little shorter. .... we didn't do that, but we did cut it straight.

These were intended to be "cheap, fast and easy SCA armour" so there are plenty of simplifications.

They are somewhat similar in overall line with the arms in the Tower that are illustrated on page 211 of Blair - second row, right one. These are the arms that are on the armour illustrated in "European Armour in the Tower of London" Plate VI. The vambraces on those arms are very similar (shorter). The elbow cop is similar in concept (but with some nice flutes) and the upper arm is a more complicated version of the same idea. We arbitrarily left off the top separate top lame and one lame below the cop and some cute decoration on the cop.

I would characterize these as simple arms styled after the designs of those made for low end armours typically called "gothic" from the second half of the 15th c. I would not say that they are a good copy of any particular piece or pieces. I think they are pretty reasonable for a low end interpretation. Probably best worn with a breastplate and salade, but nothing high end.

Is that appropriately weasel - like?

Wade
Edited to add some more detail.

[Zetheros]

It would be nice to have a section of the forums to submit a post of their pattern, with a bunch of pics. Then the community can comment on it, and see if it goes into the pattern library.

[Aussie Yeoman]

I have done a prototype pattern in PDF and DXF. You can take the DXF to a laser cutter and get pieces cut exact to size and shape.

You can print the PDF out at 100%, glue the pages together and then use them as templates to cut out yourself.

The patterns originally belonged to Wade, and so I assume Aaron as well. I got the pictures from here off the archive.

Both PDF and DXF are mercifully very small. I put a one page full view of the whole pattern at the end of the PDF, so that, like on a jigsaw box, you know what the final product is supposed to look like.

Let me know what you think. Wade discussed this pattern somewhere, but maybe he can put a few words together regarding his hints and tips. I noticed the upper lames of the right pauldron are curved much tighter than the corresponding lames on the left. I found that odd.

I have developed a pattern for a rolled cone, Milanese elbow that would go quite well with this, I believe.

Please see attached and let me know what you think. Unfortunately, the PDF is small but still too big (538kb) for the forum. Gah! So, see this link:

http://www.filedropper.com/italianpauld ... deandaaron

[wcallen]

Those patterns were for a pair of the big "angel wing" - modern term - Italian pauldrons from the very late 15th c.
They were an initial test set of patterns, they might work... I think that the upper plates are a little too "bent" which will make the pauldrons a little too rounded and they would only really fit someone with very flat shoulders.
The ends of the plates aren't quite worked out so it would probably be good to do a test fit and do a little bit of trimming along the edges before you decide where you want to put the holes. I think the front of the right pauldron works pretty well, the left is a little more wonky. I was working in 18 g. 1050 if tolerances matter to you.

I never finished them.

If you want to be completely accurate, I made those after I moved south so Aaron wasn't involved. I don't mind giving credit, but the blame for those should be shouldered by the people actually responsible.

Wade

[AaronT]

Finger gauntlets please.

[Aussie Yeoman]

Wade, the upper two lames of the left pauldron are 'flatter' than the right. Would they be close, or need to be even flatter?

Do you have templates of finished or 'production quality' pauldrons?

[wcallen]

Wade, the upper two lames of the left pauldron are 'flatter' than the right. Would they be close, or need to be even flatter?

Do you have templates of finished or 'production quality' pauldrons?

I expect they are OK. Certainly better.

I am being a little picky here, you could call the result a pair of pauldrons and they would probably work. Just not quite what I would prefer.

And I don't have a clean set of patterns for a clean set of pauldrons. I built 2 sets at about this time. One pair is on my 15th c. suit and it was much earlier - 1445-50-ish. I don't appear to have the full set of patterns for those at all, just some partial patterns.
I moved on to building a pair of the big overlapping ones and got side tracked before I finished them and never went back to it.

I think the important things about building paudrons are to get them to have the necessary shape. This shape curves around the backplate, is generally straight on the front where it extends to match up to the breastplate. The upper part has to fit the cuirass, the lower center has to fit the upper arm armour. This means that it has a very different curve.

Wade

[Aussie Yeoman]

So if I replace the two upper lames on the right pauldron with mirrors of the upper two from the left, that should be more gooder, but with a disclaimer that they're not perfect.

Were these based on a specific example, or, like the Gothic arms example, a conglomeration of many sources of inspiration? Do you have a specific time period we could place these?

Also (and this must be getting old) what are those little tab bits on the bigger plates?

[wcallen]

These were intended to be more closely patterned after real pauldrons.

The little tabs are there to allow you to cut a long sliding rivet into the plate to let it extend a long way as it compresses in front.

Based on - Mantova B4 and B5, The "Devil's Mask" armour that shows up in L'Arte Dell'Armatura in Italia (and other places) and somewhat from the Roberto Sanseverino in Vienna.

Wade

[Zeke]

hmm... where to begin...
I'd love to see: oculared Spangen and/or conical helm, a good guide on the riveting of riveted maile, some of those nifty Bronze Age armors from the thread in the design/construction section, Japanese, and Mongol armors, and more very late period armor patterns (especially helms)

[Browin Auld]

Japanese patterns and extensive dangly-bit related jargon can be found here.

You won't find a better one-stop website for information regarding japanese armor types and methods of construction.

[Bender]

plans for a tiger five?

[Aussie Yeoman]

a what?

[nicholas cochiolo]

anyone have a pattern for something like this......

cheers,
nicholas

[wcallen]

If I look hard enough, I have a pattern for something like this:



unfortunately the actual pattern for the breastplate depends heavily on how you work the metal. In my case I raised the bottom. As a dished piece or a raised all the way around piece the patterns would be completely different.

Wade

[Ingelri]

anyone have a pattern for something like this......

cheers,
nicholas

The pattern for that is actually quite simple, and would need to be based on the measurements of the person you are making it for. The base pattern is pretty much an inverted "T" with an arm sythe instead of a right angle. The inset pieces are based on the breastplate pattern, and are just extensions of the arm sythes.

Hope this helps.

[coreythompsonhm]

Actually, you can watch that breast plate be made http://www.armuredube.com/Tors_Lanceque ... plate.html

You'll see the pattern at the beginning of the video.

[Ingelri]

Actually, you can watch that breast plate be made http://www.armuredube.com/Tors_Lanceque ... plate.html

You'll see the pattern at the beginning of the video.

That too! When I make breastplates for other people I take four basic measurements. Overall length, length of side, width at chest, and width at waist. Using these four measurements I can make a BP pattern in a matter of minutes.

[wcallen]

anyone have a pattern for something like this......

cheers,
nicholas

The pattern for that is actually quite simple, and would need to be based on the measurements of the person you are making it for. The base pattern is pretty much an inverted "T" with an arm sythe instead of a right angle. The inset pieces are based on the breastplate pattern, and are just extensions of the arm sythes.

Hope this helps.

"Extensions of the arm scythes" is one way to do the gussets, but I don't think it is the easiest or best way if you want to do big rolls like this. The metal gets very thin. I make my big gussets from straight strips. I have explained this method a few times, but it turns out to be very simple. Basically you flair out both sides, not just the inside.

Wade

[Aussie Yeoman]

"Extensions of the arm scythes" is one way to do the gussets, but I don't think it is the easiest or best way if you want to do big rolls like this. The metal gets very thin. I make my big gussets from straight strips. I have explained this method a few times, but it turns out to be very simple. Basically you flair out both sides, not just the inside.

I'm squinting at the screen, with my head tilted slightly to the side. I still can't picture what you're saying. This is most likely my fault, though.

[wcallen]

"Extensions of the arm scythes" is one way to do the gussets, but I don't think it is the easiest or best way if you want to do big rolls like this. The metal gets very thin. I make my big gussets from straight strips. I have explained this method a few times, but it turns out to be very simple. Basically you flair out both sides, not just the inside.

I'm squinting at the screen, with my head tilted slightly to the side. I still can't picture what you're saying. This is most likely my fault, though.

This is a very, very rough description, but it may help.
Cut a rectangle. It is as long as the line you see at the bottom of the roll. It is the width of the flat part of the gusset at the top + the amount you need for the little bit of the roll. A little wider doesn't hurt much and can be nice for safety.

Curl it up so that it (roughly) mimics the curve of the armhole (it will look really stupid, don't worry).

Flair out the center of the side next to the breastplate so that it fits the inside of the breastplate. This will thin it at the edge where it sits under the breastplate (so it doesn't matter).

Flair the other side out to make the base flair for the roll.

Basically the only part of the metal that doesn't get hit is along the line of the base of the roll.

This maintains a lot of metal where you need it for the roll, and keeps the metal thicker where you can see it.

It also teaches you that "the wrong shape" is something you can fix.

Does that help at all?

Wade

I got this idea from measuring the thickness variation in the gussets on this breastplate:

http://www.allenantiques.com/A-61.html

The gusset gets a lot thinner in the center of the "flat" part then it is on either end.

[nicholas cochiolo]

Thank you very much. This is why I love the archive ! I just broke my hand at the first battle of Estrella. As soon as I can swing a hammer I will post pics of my progress. Does anyone have tips on the long roped edge? I have made a roping stake before but I can't get my head around the shape .

Cheers

[harris5]

Different Coat of Plates patterns. Basically anything other than the standard Wisby. Kussnach, whatever, just more of em.

[Ceawlin]

Harris5,

Just an FYI, there were 21? different body armors found at the Wisby grave site.

http://www.hoashantverk.se/hantverk/hoa ... index.html

Here's a better view.

[Buster]

Harris5,

Just an FYI, there were 21? different body armors found at the Wisby grave site.

http://www.hoashantverk.se/hantverk/hoa ... index.html

Here's a better view.

Although they all produce a similar silhouette.
Plans for early, barely waisted ones would be cool. (Like you see in the R.O.A., effigies and a couple original finds, where the waist is subtle and natural, as opposed to the sharp waist of ~1360 on.)

[Aussie Yeoman]

How're we doing with this, folks? My CAD is primed and keen to put itself to good use.

[Scott Martin]

Sorry, I spent the weekend teaching classes about armour instead of taking photos of armour patterns

I'll try to get you another pile of patterns to convert this week - I work in cardstock a lot, although I should also drop you a line about making a series of "raw" gauntlet articulations since they are formulaic, and it would be nice to be able to just print some of the correct size (probably .jpeg instead of PFD or DXF so that they can be dropped into a word file...)

Scott Martin

[Scott Martin]

There's now a late 15th century (~1480) breast and back pattern ready ready for conversion here:

http://blog.borealissteel.com/armour-pa ... tern-1480/

Scott Martin

[caladin]

Any vector file you can put in a DXF, you can save as a PDF instead, it's still able to be loaded in vector programs, and anyone can print it even without fancy software..

As to patterns I'd love to see

1. More of everything, with a more current state of the art/ more historical look...(like good armor looks now)
2. Lots of different gauntlet patterns, especially with tutorial type walk throughs... especially some of the later and boxier shapes.

Cal-

[caladin]

Any vector file you can put in a DXF, you can save as a PDF instead, it's still able to be loaded in vector programs, and anyone can print it even without fancy software..

As to patterns I'd love to see

1. More of everything, with a more current state of the art/ more historical look...(like good armor looks now)
2. Lots of different gauntlet patterns, especially with tutorial type walk throughs... especially some of the later and boxier shapes.

If folks have pics of cardboard patterns on graph paper, I'm willing to help convert some of them to vector, doing the tech end work for good armorers who don't have the care points to learn.

Cal-

[leekellerking]

Different Coat of Plates patterns. Basically anything other than the standard Wisby. Kussnach, whatever, just more of em.

...that are side opening instead of opening in the back.

[Theo]

Different Coat of Plates patterns. Basically anything other than the standard Wisby. Kussnach, whatever, just more of em.

The only one I know of that's not more properly a corazina or a brigandine is the Hirschstein coat of plates, which is only a frontal defense (like some of the Wisby COPs). It was excavated by someone with a metal detector who immediately cleaned it and tried to sell it so we never got to see it in the ground, but apparently there's a breastplate, a collar plate and 9-12 small, card-like plates that cover the abdomen. Also, it has multiple chains where you can attach weapons.

[audax]

Hourglass finger mittens.