The Armour Archive

Zweihammer wrote:Since this thread has largely been about unauthorized copies being made and sold, and legality or the ethics of the person making the copy. What about the flip side, customers actively seeking someone willing to make a knock off.

I can think of a few times people have brought the question to this board, posting a picture from someone's website of a modern reproduction and asking for a pattern, preferably free, or reference to someone who will make one cheaper than who is on the watermark.

I have been emailed by individuals (usually young people, but I don't want to make this a generational observation) with this same scenario on several occasions.

"Can you make "X" like this? (insert pic of sallet, topfhelm, kettle, etc. from well know site)", they ask.

"This is a version I have made (insert pic of my work here), is this what you are looking for?", I respond.

"No, just like the picture. I love (insert name of pilfered jpg. source here)'s version so much, it is everything I ever wanted, it is all I dream of, I will do anything to have one. All my friends have one!", is the reply.

"Well, you already know where to get it, why don't you get it from (insert name of pilfered jpg. source here), if you don't want what I offer?", I say.

"They want way too much. I will have to give up latte's and cigarettes for 3 months! (I am paraphrasing that last bit, but it is what I hear). It is my right to shop around for the best deal!" they cry.

"It is your right to see what is being offered, but you are looking for a counterfeiter. Why did you contact me if you are not interested in what I have to offer? I can't help you.", I angrily type.

"You don't have to be such a d*ck about it!" they counter.

I imagine they continue their quest until they find a receptive audience. I would think many knock offs begin this way. Ethics of the manufacturer aside, someone brought item to them to be copied.

Tasha K wrote:

Cilléne mac Conghalaigh wrote:I bridle when I try to patronize the best of the best only to be told I can’t and then on top of that that I am impatient and somehow rude for going elsewhere to get what I want.

I think lack of availability of the product you want is a good reason to go to someone who can provide it. This is common sense. If all things are equal except for price, however, I'm pretty sure that's a direct reflection of the stark differences in the costs of doing business depending on the country of origin. And that's a frustrating thing, because the natural longterm consequence is inevitably the demise of the businesses with more expensive overhead -- regardless of how great their product is, regardless of how great their customer service is. It bums me out. I think that's a reasonable feeling to have. Life ain't fair, but that doesn't mean I have to cheerfully enjoy the unfairness.

And for the record, I'm not in any "clique", real or imagined. I'm just an individual with an opinion on the topic.

brewer wrote:

Cilléne mac Conghalaigh wrote:And if the merchant that is selling the top quality items CAN NOT DELIVER those of us willing to pay the price are forced elsewhere.

Sorry folks but it's not all about cheap knock offs here. I'm willing to pay top dollar because I am not a tailor, I do not sew, I do not want to learn to sew, I already brew, and woodowrk, and paint, and that's enough for me and it's just a friggin bloody hobby! I devote the rest of my time to real life things like work and family, house and bills. So when I need or want a piece of garb for an even that is coming up in the next month or two, I'd like it before the event. You want me to plan for events that won't happen until next year and wait 8-16 weeks for an item. Sorry, not going to happen. This speaks to the level of play. That's all. Don't begruge me my level of play because you play more. I will simply find a merchant that can give me what i want, when I want it, and gladly pay the price.

Can't provide the goods? Change how you do business

Time out, Cilléne. Don't confuse your misplaced expectations with vendors being unable to deliver. Note: I don't want to be a jerk. I confess, however, that attitudes like this - though most often due to misperception rather than malice - really chap my arse. So here goes.

Looks like it's time to trot out The Triangle again.



You can have two. The other must be excluded.

Expecting someone to make you something right exactly to your order and getting it in less than a few weeks is unreasonable. Ordering custom means you have to plan a little. You do realize "custom" means you ain't getting something off the peg, don't you?

Here's a parallel involving brewing, because you and I are both brewers and can speak the same language. Give me a beer, brewed to my specifications, fully conditioned and ready for drinking, right now. Or in two weeks. You and I both know that's impossible. Hell, you can't even do that if you have a menu of semi-custom options on your dialed-in recipes.*

Neither can a professional tailor. Professional tailors don't sit there with their thumbs up their asses until your order comes along - they've got a queue of people in line. You have to discuss fabrics and embellishments - which must be ordered and applied - and (in a perfect world) fittings would be accomplished.

You're not getting that level of service "on demand".

This issue of out-of-whack expectations is a major problem in this market. What people like tailors and other craftsmen do is incompatible with an on-demand world. People want to click a link and get a perfect product in a few days. Sometimes that works - people like Gwen sell nice, high-quality stuff off the peg - but most times it doesn't. Most of the time if you want something rapidly you have to deal with a lack of fit, or the color isn't right, or the hem is too long, etc. If you want something right now, you have to deal with what the seller has in stock that might remotely fit you. If you want a chest 44" blue tunic in gabardine but all I've got is a chest 48" red tunic in wool flannel, you have two choices: Buy the red tunic or get in line for my schedule to free up enough to fit in a blue one. If you want the red tunic more quickly than my schedule allows, you will make it worth my while to bump your order to the front of the queue or your order won't get bumped up.

That's how the custom clothing business works, Cilléne. If you can't deal with that fact, the problem isn't with sellers being unable to deliver, the problem is you being unable or unwilling to adjust your expectations. I hope this explanation helps enable you to adjust those expectations.

Respectfully,

Bob

* Can't do that? Change how you do business.

James B. wrote:

Cilléne mac Conghalaigh wrote: But be bald faces honest, this thread has been about only support a select few merchants and that is bogus. This cliquish attitude of "you're a goob if you don't pay top dollar from so and so or make it yourself" is ridiculous.

Not what I am saying at all, you are reading too much into my words. I said going to a vender buying their item and making your own copies, in this case castings, to save money is assholish. Coming to my stall and bitching about my price is assholish. You cannot compare a historical wool clothing seller to the generic poly cotton garb seller for price it is a whole different market. To expect someone to lower their wool tunic with hand stitching to the same price as a poly t tunic with all machining is unrealistic.

I am not saying you have to buy from a list of people I am only saying don't expect the guying making high end products to sell at low end prices. People need to make a living.

There is room for vendors on all sorts.

As to the issue of wait lists, there is nothing wrong buying off the rack instead of waiting for something.

Also just FYI this thread started because in some of Westlands threads people were making accusations that he is using unfair business practices and I was defending him as innocent until proven guilty. I feel making unfounded assumptions is unfair.

James B. wrote:

Cilléne mac Conghalaigh wrote: But be bald faces honest, this thread has been about only support a select few merchants and that is bogus. This cliquish attitude of "you're a goob if you don't pay top dollar from so and so or make it yourself" is ridiculous.

Not what I am saying at all, you are reading too much into my words. I said going to a vender buying their item and making your own copies, in this case castings, to save money is assholish. Coming to my stall and bitching about my price is assholish. You cannot compare a historical wool clothing seller to the generic poly cotton garb seller for price it is a whole different market. To expect someone to lower their wool tunic with hand stitching to the same price as a poly t tunic with all machining is unrealistic.

I am not saying you have to buy from a list of people I am only saying don't expect the guying making high end products to sell at low end prices. People need to make a living.

There is room for vendors on all sorts.

As to the issue of wait lists, there is nothing wrong buying off the rack instead of waiting for something.

Also just FYI this thread started because in some of Westlands threads people were making accusations that he is using unfair business practices and I was defending him as innocent until proven guilty. I feel making unfounded assumptions is unfair.

Cilléne mac Conghalaigh wrote:James, fair enough, my bad. I will take it on the chin for being ovely touchy to the thread and offer my apologies. I agree with the above 100%.

Cilléne mac Conghalaigh wrote:It seems and again, please correct me if I am wrong, that folks are saying I should not go elsewhere but simply suck it up and wait, wait, wait, at the merchants pleasure rather than go elsewhere to get the one item I am in the market for.

Aaron wrote:

Johannes wrote:That makes it a Trademark violation, and that is protected pretty well.

You trademarked the monkies that entertained Gwen and gave her cocktails?

James B. wrote:

Cilléne mac Conghalaigh wrote:It seems and again, please correct me if I am wrong, that folks are saying I should not go elsewhere but simply suck it up and wait, wait, wait, at the merchants pleasure rather than go elsewhere to get the one item I am in the market for.

Black Swan Designs wrote:This thread has wandered around a good deal and in this case has gotten quite specific. To bring it back on point, I'd venture to say no one would censure you for going to another craftsperson if I couldn't deliver, but that sending a craftsperson a photo of the dress you wanted from my website and saying 'make me this' would be asking someone to plagarize or knock off my design. Asking for such a copy is inherently wrong. Sending the craftsman a 15th C. image and saying 'make me something that looks like this', is fine.

That's just my take on it though.

Gwen

Johannes wrote:

Black Swan Designs wrote:This thread has wandered around a good deal and in this case has gotten quite specific. To bring it back on point, I'd venture to say no one would censure you for going to another craftsperson if I couldn't deliver, but that sending a craftsperson a photo of the dress you wanted from my website and saying 'make me this' would be asking someone to plagarize or knock off my design. Asking for such a copy is inherently wrong. Sending the craftsman a 15th C. image and saying 'make me something that looks like this', is fine.

That's just my take on it though.

Gwen

While this is a LEGAL thing to do, it is not necessarily ethical. Taking a picture from BSD's website and sending it to have someone else make a duplicate just seems wrong (and we get the same emails Zweihammer does), as does some company actually doing it.

As a company policy, we always try to direct a customer to a version of the item that we design in our own style. Balancing the ON Demand nature of the market with the reality of stock levels and inventory costs, is a major headache. No matter what, we never have the right helmet in the right size and options. Thanks god we don't have color as an option!

Cilléne mac Conghalaigh wrote:But when the customer attempts to provide custom to the merchant with the higher over head and said merchant cannot deliver, the customer is forced elsewhere, even possible to the overseas lower over head merchant. But at least the higher over head merchant had the right of first refusal.

Black Swan Designs wrote:It's one thing to want cheap tunics, and another matter entirely when someone who absolutely can't afford it wants to take up jousting on a shoestring. That's frightening.

Tasha K wrote:

Cilléne mac Conghalaigh wrote:But when the customer attempts to provide custom to the merchant with the higher over head and said merchant cannot deliver, the customer is forced elsewhere, even possible to the overseas lower over head merchant. But at least the higher over head merchant had the right of first refusal.

All you're doing here is violently agreeing with me.

Black Swan Designs wrote:We were only just able to find a single vendor in Germany who could deliver a dress by June as of Mother's Day! May 9th! It took us searching from March to May to even find a vendor.

I think you just answered your own question here. It's not just me, bespoke dressmaking takes time from any reputable, professional shop, *especially* at the beginning of the season. If you had come to me in January, I could have turned your wife's clothes around in 2 weeks.

Gwen

Black Swan Designs wrote:[b]If you had come to me in January, I could have turned your wife's clothes around in 2 weeks.

Cilléne mac Conghalaigh wrote:Again, no argument here. We never sent anyone a picture from the HE site. We simply resigned ourselves to the fact that we could not get the HE gown we wanted and went looking at other styles and have ordered a completely different gown. Like I said, it's not 100% what we want (that would be Gwens fine work that we want) It's 60% because it's somewhat period and look ok. We have never asked for an HE knock off however.

white mountain armoury wrote:

Black Swan Designs wrote:[b]If you had come to me in January, I could have turned your wife's clothes around in 2 weeks.

I get this all the time, buisnes is slow in jan/feb/march, come late april folks want to place orders and must have the item for Pennsic, they have known since the previous Pennsic when the next one is, yet so many wait until the event is just a couple months away and then are bummed if I cant promise a pre Pennsic delivery date.
I have had occasional helmet orders in Jan that I am able to tun over in less than a week, come spring/summer a backlog builds.

Johannes wrote:

Aaron wrote:

Johannes wrote:That makes it a Trademark violation, and that is protected pretty well.

You trademarked the monkies that entertained Gwen and gave her cocktails?

Ask them to show you the Marks, but it ain't pretty!

MJBlazek wrote:

white mountain armoury wrote:

Black Swan Designs wrote:[b]If you had come to me in January, I could have turned your wife's clothes around in 2 weeks.

I get this all the time, buisnes is slow in jan/feb/march, come late april folks want to place orders and must have the item for Pennsic, they have known since the previous Pennsic when the next one is, yet so many wait until the event is just a couple months away and then are bummed if I cant promise a pre Pennsic delivery date.
I have had occasional helmet orders in Jan that I am able to tun over in less than a week, come spring/summer a backlog builds.

I bet this has more to do with the receiving of tax refunds than the event.

Jeffrey Hedgecock wrote:This is not the same thing at all from an offshore manufacturer retailing direct to customers. That is not at issue here. Unauthorized knockoffs are.