Icefalcon improved mail sleeves - Pre-order now!

[Tom B.]

I have been talking with Robert MacPherson & Wade Allen about what pattern changes would be needed to make the commercially available mail sleeves more historic and functional and how to convey that info to the makers in India. Quickly we came to the conclusion that the guys in India would need an example sleeve to work from. So, I approached Andre at Icefalcon Armoury. He has graciously agreed to help us go forward with this project if we can get enough interest.

Basically Ice will provide materials to Mac to make a 6mm riveted example sleeve based on the M-15 & M-16 sleeves in Wade Allen's Collection.. Mac will mark all of the "funny" rings that make the shape more tailored.
The exemplar with then be sent to India for them to use as a pattern to copy.

Pricing would be slightly higher than the current sleeves offered by Icefalcon.
We need at least 6 people to commit to a pre-order before we can go forward.

Please let us know in this thread if you are interested.

This is our chance to show that we as an armour buying community are committed to more historical and higher functioning mail.
This is a first step.

EDITED to add:
Cost would be a bit more than current sleeves 9Current 6mm round rivedted sleeves med/lg =$395)
Payment would be 50% down and 50% upon shipping.
Pre-order mail quoted times have been 3 months from order to delivery in the past.

Thanks,

[Sean M]

This is a very good idea. What pattern do the current "bent-at-the-elbow" maille sleeves use? I would guess a tee-shirt construction, with another tube attached to the end of the sleeves at a slight angle. At the very least, Wade's have tapered sleeves ...

I would leap at this if I weren't poor or was interested in a period where I don't have a good excuse to wear a full haubergeon.

You should be sure to post this on other boards, like MyArmoury and Schola Swordsmanship Forum.

[Tom B.]

This is a very good idea. What pattern do the current "bent-at-the-elbow" maille sleeves use? I would guess a tee-shirt construction, with another tube attached to the end of the sleeves at a slight angle. At the very least, Wade's have tapered sleeves ...

I believe that the current sleeves were an attempt to get things right but the guys in India just had a few photos to look at.

You should be sure to post this on other boards, like MyArmoury and Schola Swordsmanship Forum.

Good idea I will get on that ASAP.

[Seesinsilhouette]

I'm in

I ordered some of the last batch which whilst nice maille were just too baggy around the forearm so ended up being bespoke voiders ( I have the ability to remove rings but am hopeless and putting them back!!)

My problem is I've quite thin arms so if I were to commit I'd need to make sure they would at least come in a small size and get some approximate measurements.

I appreciate they will not be custom made but if I have a rough idea then I'll be happy

If this is possible, I'm in

On an aside note, whilst working on this project is there any chance of developing braies d'acier? ( sorry if I have misspelt that). I'm certain they would be popular!

Michael

[Pitbull Armory]

What?? A bunch of my armoring heroes getting together to make the armoring world a better place???

Sounds like the AVENGERS!! Thank you for your time guys.

If I had some idea on how much an order would be I could decide if I was in or not.


Take care

Pitbull

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Well, the ones currently offered are 395 for a pair. Pricing slightly higher than that for well-tailored sleeves would be awesome.

[Tom B.]

Guys, I am hoping that there will be enough interest in this project that it will open the door to allow future projects (not necessarily by the same guys) to cover the needs of other mail garments. This could be the start of something great.

[Mac]

I'm in


My problem is I've quite thin arms so if I were to commit I'd need to make sure they would at least come in a small size and get some approximate measurements.


Michael

Micheal,

I expect to make the exemplar be a "size medium". I don't know where Andre will want to go from there.

Here's the good news. Changing the circumference of a sleeve is easy. Since all the "funny business" of tailoring happens on bottom, you can add or subtract from the top of the arm without changing the shape.

If you wanted the sleeve to fit a thinner arm, you would just cut from shoulder to wrist along the top and take out a pair or two (or more) columns, and close it all back up again. Conversely, if you needed them to fit a heavier arm, you just add pairs of columns before closing the cut.

I believe that resizing for circumference could be done in an afternoon by anyone who has ever worked with riveted mail.

Mac

[Knight Sir James]

If I didn't already have a set of voiders I started tailoring, I'd jump at the opportunity. This is something the community should really support; if it goes well, they could use the same pattern to change the sleeving on hauberks. I already cut mine up to tailor, and got a bunch of spare rings and rivets to do the 45* angles too... but if anyone is considering proper sleeves, get on board with this! It's *VERY* worth a little extra price to not do the painstaking tailoring bits!

[Seesinsilhouette]

Thanks for the reply Mac. I have full confidence in this project so I am now 100% " in"

Many thanks

[Tom B.]

What?? A bunch of my armoring heroes getting together to make the armoring world a better place???

Sounds like the AVENGERS!! Thank you for your time guys.

If I had some idea on how much an order would be I could decide if I was in or not.


Take care

Pitbull

As someone else said the current 6mm round riveted sleeves are priced at $395, Andre told me these new improved sleeves would be a little bit more.
So far that is as exact as I can get.

[wcallen]

If the planets and our schedules align, Mac and I will be getting together in the next few days to look over my sleeves and talk about whatever we end up talking about. I would suppose it would include the tailoring of the sleeves.

That may get this little project rolling.

A sleeve with an actual elbow in it really changes the whole dynamic of wearing the sleeve and bending your arm (I know, a silly thing to want to do). And having the arm actually taper eliminates a lot of the bulk that is normal in modern mail. 6mm is about the size of the rings in my old sleeves.

So the result should not only be a lot more wearable but also look better.

Wade

[Tom B.]

Better looking and more wearableare what I am looking for.

Last weekend I had to resort to turning my 9mm riveted sleeves into short sleeves.
They bound up my arms mainly because they don't really have an elbow.
I will likely piece the parts back together as a set of voiders until I get these new improved sleeves.

Tom

[Tom B.]

Well, the ones currently offered are 395 for a pair. Pricing slightly higher than that for well-tailored sleeves would be awesome.

Does that mean we can count you in for a pre-order when the time comes?

[Otto von Teich]

Sounds really good...might be to soon for me to commit 100%. I'll need to see how the finances are when the time comes. But yes..I wants em.

[Tom B.]

[Pitbull Armory]

So the auction is for a set of sleeves only? or a shirt with sleeves like that? Sry I just want to be sure what we talking about before I say im in or not.


Ty

Pb

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Well, the ones currently offered are 395 for a pair. Pricing slightly higher than that for well-tailored sleeves would be awesome.

Does that mean we can count you in for a pre-order when the time comes?

Depends on when that time comes, honestly. Which is a shame, because I couldn't make them myself for that much when I factor in my time. But what with trying to replace a totalled car and saving for my wedding, my finances are solidly spoken for right now.

[Seesinsilhouette]

I'll put the word out amongst my various reenactment/ hema/ living history circles on FB and see what we come up with. Fingers crossed

[Seesinsilhouette]

Ok, that's done, I've directed all interested traffic towards this thread. I hope that helps guys

[Seesinsilhouette]

One final question.

Since all this effort is going into making these sleeves a more accurate shape would it be worth looking into wedge riveted rings?

Cheers

[Tom B.]

So the auction is for a set of sleeves only? or a shirt with sleeves like that? Sry I just want to be sure what we talking about before I say im in or not.


Ty

Pb

What we are talking about now are pre-orders for sleeves only.

[Pitbull Armory]

Ok Ill pass. Id be interested in a hauberk, I have voiders already.


Take care

Pb

[Tom B.]

Wade and Mac met up at Tom Justus' place over the weekend to take a close look at the two sleeves from Wade's collection.
Looks like things are moving quickly. We just need some more people to commit to pre-order the sleeves from Icefalcon.

Come on you know you want a set

[Pitbull Armory]

The first part of the post is a link to FB, Its blocked to me, I guess everyone doesent like Pitbulls :0)

The sleave in the pic I can see here fits like no other Ive ever seen, really nice and tailored.

Have a good week

Pitbull

[Tracy Justus]

The sleeve fits well because it's an original 16th c mail sleeve from Wade's collection. The original mail is fairly fine (slightly over 4 mm ID) and the commercial mail is likely to be made of 6 mm ID larger rings.

Tracy (who took the photo)

[wcallen]

Yes, that is a picture of Tom wearing one of my sleeves (the one with the smaller links and tighter weave) and showing the bendy-elbow. It fit him better than it fit either of us.

I am on the left and Mac on the right.

Luckily you can't see us.

We did actually look at the sleeves to see where the interesting details were too. Both are constructed following a consistent pattern. One has larger rings and a more open feel. It is also lighter. If you look closely on this one you can see the 3 ring wide line of brass(ish) rings along the edge. It goes all the way around the shoulder end and along the wrist.

This was step one of the design process.

Wade

[wcallen]

That is this sleeve:

http://www.allenantiques.com/M-16.html

Wade

P.S.
I can't see what Tom posted on FB. This is interesting:

http://www.allenantiques.com/images/mail%20006.JPG
http://www.allenantiques.com/images/mail%20002.JPG

It shows the mail in my 2 sleeves next to a quarter for scale and a piece of modern Indian (large) riveted mail. There are some differences.......

[Tom B.]

That is this sleeve:

http://www.allenantiques.com/M-16.html

Wade

P.S.
I can't see what Tom posted on FB. This is interesting:

http://www.allenantiques.com/images/mail%20006.JPG
http://www.allenantiques.com/images/mail%20002.JPG

It shows the mail in my 2 sleeves next to a quarter for scale and a piece of modern Indian (large) riveted mail. There are some differences.......

Wade, I am guessing that is a close-up of your 2 sleeves and modern 9mm stainless Indian made mail?

Tom & Tracy Justus' Facebook Photos I stole:

[Paladin74]

What is the timeframe we are looking at? Naturally, I want a pair...but would need to be able to plan for it.

[wcallen]

The lower image is just like one of the ones I posted. Mine is full sized so you can zoooooom in.

The other one is our ugly mugs talking about the sleeves. I don't remember what we were saying at the time.

I wonder what other parts of my life are on Facebook. Well, I will never know.

Wade

P.S. Yes, both sleeves and a modern piece of... it might be 9mm. Seemed even bigger than that, but maybe they measure funny.

[Tom B.]

What is the timeframe we are looking at? Naturally, I want a pair...but would need to be able to plan for it.

Pretty quickly, depending on how long it takes to get the pre-orders lined up.
If we had them today then Mac could get his supplies from Ice and start on the exemplar.
We are hoping to do this quickly.

Tom

[coreythompsonhm]

So, is there any change to the actual rings they are producing, like say, not so flat?

[Seesinsilhouette]

I imagine it will be tricky to change the ring types from what they already produce. I've seen flat ring with round and wedge rivets and round cross section with round rivets but never round cross section with wedge rivets.

The flat cross section I can live with but if they could be made with wedge then that would make me very happy.

[Tom B.]

I imagine it will be tricky to change the ring types from what they already produce. I've seen flat ring with round and wedge rivets and round cross section with round rivets but never round cross section with wedge rivets.

The flat cross section I can live with but if they could be made with wedge then that would make me very happy.

At this point changing the ring type or shape is not on the table.
Although I think that is a worthy endeavor it is beyond the scope of this project.