Icefalcon improved mail sleeves - Pre-order now!
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Icefalcon improved mail sleeves - Pre-order now!
I have been talking with Robert MacPherson & Wade Allen about what pattern changes would be needed to make the commercially available mail sleeves more historic and functional and how to convey that info to the makers in India. Quickly we came to the conclusion that the guys in India would need an example sleeve to work from. So, I approached Andre at Icefalcon Armoury. He has graciously agreed to help us go forward with this project if we can get enough interest.
Basically Ice will provide materials to Mac to make a 6mm riveted example sleeve based on the M-15 & M-16 sleeves in Wade Allen's Collection.. Mac will mark all of the "funny" rings that make the shape more tailored.
The exemplar with then be sent to India for them to use as a pattern to copy.
Pricing would be slightly higher than the current sleeves offered by Icefalcon.
We need at least 6 people to commit to a pre-order before we can go forward.
Please let us know in this thread if you are interested.
This is our chance to show that we as an armour buying community are committed to more historical and higher functioning mail.
This is a first step.
EDITED to add:
Cost would be a bit more than current sleeves 9Current 6mm round rivedted sleeves med/lg =$395)
Payment would be 50% down and 50% upon shipping.
Pre-order mail quoted times have been 3 months from order to delivery in the past.
Thanks,
Basically Ice will provide materials to Mac to make a 6mm riveted example sleeve based on the M-15 & M-16 sleeves in Wade Allen's Collection.. Mac will mark all of the "funny" rings that make the shape more tailored.
The exemplar with then be sent to India for them to use as a pattern to copy.
Pricing would be slightly higher than the current sleeves offered by Icefalcon.
We need at least 6 people to commit to a pre-order before we can go forward.
Please let us know in this thread if you are interested.
This is our chance to show that we as an armour buying community are committed to more historical and higher functioning mail.
This is a first step.
EDITED to add:
Cost would be a bit more than current sleeves 9Current 6mm round rivedted sleeves med/lg =$395)
Payment would be 50% down and 50% upon shipping.
Pre-order mail quoted times have been 3 months from order to delivery in the past.
Thanks,
Last edited by Tom B. on Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
This is a very good idea. What pattern do the current "bent-at-the-elbow" maille sleeves use? I would guess a tee-shirt construction, with another tube attached to the end of the sleeves at a slight angle. At the very least, Wade's have tapered sleeves ...
I would leap at this if I weren't poor or was interested in a period where I don't have a good excuse to wear a full haubergeon.
You should be sure to post this on other boards, like MyArmoury and Schola Swordsmanship Forum.
I would leap at this if I weren't poor or was interested in a period where I don't have a good excuse to wear a full haubergeon.
You should be sure to post this on other boards, like MyArmoury and Schola Swordsmanship Forum.
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
I believe that the current sleeves were an attempt to get things right but the guys in India just had a few photos to look at.Sean Manning wrote:This is a very good idea. What pattern do the current "bent-at-the-elbow" maille sleeves use? I would guess a tee-shirt construction, with another tube attached to the end of the sleeves at a slight angle. At the very least, Wade's have tapered sleeves ...
Good idea I will get on that ASAP.Sean Manning wrote: You should be sure to post this on other boards, like MyArmoury and Schola Swordsmanship Forum.
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
I'm in
I ordered some of the last batch which whilst nice maille were just too baggy around the forearm so ended up being bespoke voiders ( I have the ability to remove rings but am hopeless and putting them back!!)
My problem is I've quite thin arms so if I were to commit I'd need to make sure they would at least come in a small size and get some approximate measurements.
I appreciate they will not be custom made but if I have a rough idea then I'll be happy
If this is possible, I'm in
On an aside note, whilst working on this project is there any chance of developing braies d'acier? ( sorry if I have misspelt that). I'm certain they would be popular!
Michael
I ordered some of the last batch which whilst nice maille were just too baggy around the forearm so ended up being bespoke voiders ( I have the ability to remove rings but am hopeless and putting them back!!)
My problem is I've quite thin arms so if I were to commit I'd need to make sure they would at least come in a small size and get some approximate measurements.
I appreciate they will not be custom made but if I have a rough idea then I'll be happy
If this is possible, I'm in
On an aside note, whilst working on this project is there any chance of developing braies d'acier? ( sorry if I have misspelt that). I'm certain they would be popular!
Michael
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
What?? A bunch of my armoring heroes getting together to make the armoring world a better place???
Sounds like the AVENGERS!! Thank you for your time guys.
If I had some idea on how much an order would be I could decide if I was in or not.
Take care
Pitbull
Sounds like the AVENGERS!! Thank you for your time guys.
If I had some idea on how much an order would be I could decide if I was in or not.
Take care
Pitbull
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
Well, the ones currently offered are 395 for a pair. Pricing slightly higher than that for well-tailored sleeves would be awesome.
"There is a tremendous amount of information in a picture, but getting at it is not a purely passive process. You have to work at it, but the more you work at it the easier it becomes." - Mac
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
Guys, I am hoping that there will be enough interest in this project that it will open the door to allow future projects (not necessarily by the same guys) to cover the needs of other mail garments. This could be the start of something great.
Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
Micheal,Seesinsilhouette wrote:I'm in
My problem is I've quite thin arms so if I were to commit I'd need to make sure they would at least come in a small size and get some approximate measurements.
Michael
I expect to make the exemplar be a "size medium". I don't know where Andre will want to go from there.
Here's the good news. Changing the circumference of a sleeve is easy. Since all the "funny business" of tailoring happens on bottom, you can add or subtract from the top of the arm without changing the shape.
If you wanted the sleeve to fit a thinner arm, you would just cut from shoulder to wrist along the top and take out a pair or two (or more) columns, and close it all back up again. Conversely, if you needed them to fit a heavier arm, you just add pairs of columns before closing the cut.
I believe that resizing for circumference could be done in an afternoon by anyone who has ever worked with riveted mail.
Mac
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
If I didn't already have a set of voiders I started tailoring, I'd jump at the opportunity. This is something the community should really support; if it goes well, they could use the same pattern to change the sleeving on hauberks. I already cut mine up to tailor, and got a bunch of spare rings and rivets to do the 45* angles too... but if anyone is considering proper sleeves, get on board with this! It's *VERY* worth a little extra price to not do the painstaking tailoring bits!
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
Thanks for the reply Mac. I have full confidence in this project so I am now 100% " in"
Many thanks
Many thanks
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
As someone else said the current 6mm round riveted sleeves are priced at $395, Andre told me these new improved sleeves would be a little bit more.Pitbull Armory wrote:What?? A bunch of my armoring heroes getting together to make the armoring world a better place???
Sounds like the AVENGERS!! Thank you for your time guys.
If I had some idea on how much an order would be I could decide if I was in or not.
Take care
Pitbull
So far that is as exact as I can get.
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
If the planets and our schedules align, Mac and I will be getting together in the next few days to look over my sleeves and talk about whatever we end up talking about. I would suppose it would include the tailoring of the sleeves.
That may get this little project rolling.
A sleeve with an actual elbow in it really changes the whole dynamic of wearing the sleeve and bending your arm (I know, a silly thing to want to do). And having the arm actually taper eliminates a lot of the bulk that is normal in modern mail. 6mm is about the size of the rings in my old sleeves.
So the result should not only be a lot more wearable but also look better.
Wade
That may get this little project rolling.
A sleeve with an actual elbow in it really changes the whole dynamic of wearing the sleeve and bending your arm (I know, a silly thing to want to do). And having the arm actually taper eliminates a lot of the bulk that is normal in modern mail. 6mm is about the size of the rings in my old sleeves.
So the result should not only be a lot more wearable but also look better.
Wade
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
Better looking and more wearableare what I am looking for.
Last weekend I had to resort to turning my 9mm riveted sleeves into short sleeves.
They bound up my arms mainly because they don't really have an elbow.
I will likely piece the parts back together as a set of voiders until I get these new improved sleeves.
Tom
Last weekend I had to resort to turning my 9mm riveted sleeves into short sleeves.
They bound up my arms mainly because they don't really have an elbow.
I will likely piece the parts back together as a set of voiders until I get these new improved sleeves.
Tom
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
Does that mean we can count you in for a pre-order when the time comes?Keegan Ingrassia wrote:Well, the ones currently offered are 395 for a pair. Pricing slightly higher than that for well-tailored sleeves would be awesome.
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
Sounds really good...might be to soon for me to commit 100%. I'll need to see how the finances are when the time comes. But yes..I wants em.
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
So the auction is for a set of sleeves only? or a shirt with sleeves like that? Sry I just want to be sure what we talking about before I say im in or not.
Ty
Pb
Ty
Pb
Last edited by Pitbull Armory on Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
Depends on when that time comes, honestly. Which is a shame, because I couldn't make them myself for that much when I factor in my time. But what with trying to replace a totalled car and saving for my wedding, my finances are solidly spoken for right now.Tom B. wrote:Does that mean we can count you in for a pre-order when the time comes?Keegan Ingrassia wrote:Well, the ones currently offered are 395 for a pair. Pricing slightly higher than that for well-tailored sleeves would be awesome.
"There is a tremendous amount of information in a picture, but getting at it is not a purely passive process. You have to work at it, but the more you work at it the easier it becomes." - Mac
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
I'll put the word out amongst my various reenactment/ hema/ living history circles on FB and see what we come up with. Fingers crossed
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
Ok, that's done, I've directed all interested traffic towards this thread. I hope that helps guys
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
One final question.
Since all this effort is going into making these sleeves a more accurate shape would it be worth looking into wedge riveted rings?
Cheers
Since all this effort is going into making these sleeves a more accurate shape would it be worth looking into wedge riveted rings?
Cheers
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
What we are talking about now are pre-orders for sleeves only.Pitbull Armory wrote:So the auction is for a set of sleeves only? or a shirt with sleeves like that? Sry I just want to be sure what we talking about before I say im in or not.
Ty
Pb
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
Ok Ill pass. Id be interested in a hauberk, I have voiders already.
Take care
Pb
Take care
Pb
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
Wade and Mac met up at Tom Justus' place over the weekend to take a close look at the two sleeves from Wade's collection.
Looks like things are moving quickly. We just need some more people to commit to pre-order the sleeves from Icefalcon.
Come on you know you want a set
Looks like things are moving quickly. We just need some more people to commit to pre-order the sleeves from Icefalcon.
Come on you know you want a set
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
The first part of the post is a link to FB, Its blocked to me, I guess everyone doesent like Pitbulls :0)
The sleave in the pic I can see here fits like no other Ive ever seen, really nice and tailored.
Have a good week
Pitbull
The sleave in the pic I can see here fits like no other Ive ever seen, really nice and tailored.
Have a good week
Pitbull
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
The sleeve fits well because it's an original 16th c mail sleeve from Wade's collection. The original mail is fairly fine (slightly over 4 mm ID) and the commercial mail is likely to be made of 6 mm ID larger rings.
Tracy (who took the photo)
Tracy (who took the photo)
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
Yes, that is a picture of Tom wearing one of my sleeves (the one with the smaller links and tighter weave) and showing the bendy-elbow. It fit him better than it fit either of us.
I am on the left and Mac on the right.
Luckily you can't see us.
We did actually look at the sleeves to see where the interesting details were too. Both are constructed following a consistent pattern. One has larger rings and a more open feel. It is also lighter. If you look closely on this one you can see the 3 ring wide line of brass(ish) rings along the edge. It goes all the way around the shoulder end and along the wrist.
This was step one of the design process.
Wade
I am on the left and Mac on the right.
Luckily you can't see us.
We did actually look at the sleeves to see where the interesting details were too. Both are constructed following a consistent pattern. One has larger rings and a more open feel. It is also lighter. If you look closely on this one you can see the 3 ring wide line of brass(ish) rings along the edge. It goes all the way around the shoulder end and along the wrist.
This was step one of the design process.
Wade
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
That is this sleeve:
http://www.allenantiques.com/M-16.html
Wade
P.S.
I can't see what Tom posted on FB. This is interesting:
http://www.allenantiques.com/images/mail%20006.JPG
http://www.allenantiques.com/images/mail%20002.JPG
It shows the mail in my 2 sleeves next to a quarter for scale and a piece of modern Indian (large) riveted mail. There are some differences.......
http://www.allenantiques.com/M-16.html
Wade
P.S.
I can't see what Tom posted on FB. This is interesting:
http://www.allenantiques.com/images/mail%20006.JPG
http://www.allenantiques.com/images/mail%20002.JPG
It shows the mail in my 2 sleeves next to a quarter for scale and a piece of modern Indian (large) riveted mail. There are some differences.......
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
Wade, I am guessing that is a close-up of your 2 sleeves and modern 9mm stainless Indian made mail?wcallen wrote:That is this sleeve:
http://www.allenantiques.com/M-16.html
Wade
P.S.
I can't see what Tom posted on FB. This is interesting:
http://www.allenantiques.com/images/mail%20006.JPG
http://www.allenantiques.com/images/mail%20002.JPG
It shows the mail in my 2 sleeves next to a quarter for scale and a piece of modern Indian (large) riveted mail. There are some differences.......
Tom & Tracy Justus' Facebook Photos I stole:
Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
What is the timeframe we are looking at? Naturally, I want a pair...but would need to be able to plan for it.
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
The lower image is just like one of the ones I posted. Mine is full sized so you can zoooooom in.
The other one is our ugly mugs talking about the sleeves. I don't remember what we were saying at the time.
I wonder what other parts of my life are on Facebook. Well, I will never know.
Wade
P.S. Yes, both sleeves and a modern piece of... it might be 9mm. Seemed even bigger than that, but maybe they measure funny.
The other one is our ugly mugs talking about the sleeves. I don't remember what we were saying at the time.
I wonder what other parts of my life are on Facebook. Well, I will never know.
Wade
P.S. Yes, both sleeves and a modern piece of... it might be 9mm. Seemed even bigger than that, but maybe they measure funny.
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
Pretty quickly, depending on how long it takes to get the pre-orders lined up.Paladin74 wrote:What is the timeframe we are looking at? Naturally, I want a pair...but would need to be able to plan for it.
If we had them today then Mac could get his supplies from Ice and start on the exemplar.
We are hoping to do this quickly.
Tom
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
So, is there any change to the actual rings they are producing, like say, not so flat?
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
I imagine it will be tricky to change the ring types from what they already produce. I've seen flat ring with round and wedge rivets and round cross section with round rivets but never round cross section with wedge rivets.
The flat cross section I can live with but if they could be made with wedge then that would make me very happy.
The flat cross section I can live with but if they could be made with wedge then that would make me very happy.
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Re: Mac & Icefalcon project to get better tailored mail slee
At this point changing the ring type or shape is not on the table.Seesinsilhouette wrote:I imagine it will be tricky to change the ring types from what they already produce. I've seen flat ring with round and wedge rivets and round cross section with round rivets but never round cross section with wedge rivets.
The flat cross section I can live with but if they could be made with wedge then that would make me very happy.
Although I think that is a worthy endeavor it is beyond the scope of this project.