Icefalcon improved mail sleeves - Pre-order now!

[wcallen]

I imagine it will be tricky to change the ring types from what they already produce. I've seen flat ring with round and wedge rivets and round cross section with round rivets but never round cross section with wedge rivets.

The flat cross section I can live with but if they could be made with wedge then that would make me very happy.

At this point changing the ring type or shape is not on the table.
Although I think that is a worthy endeavor it is beyond the scope of this project.

Wandering around and looking at what appears to be out there, I assume that we might have some choices between the types that are made. Maybe?

I think I have seen:

6mm round ring, pin rivet (all riveted)
6mm round ring, pin rivet and solid
6mm flat ring, pin rivet and solid

The sleeves I have are less than 6mm, round ring, wedge rivet, no solid rings.

I don't know that we have any choice at all - but I am curious what is actually planned.

Wade

[Seesinsilhouette]

What would the feeling be toward using 9mm or 7mm wedge riveted rings rather than 6mm pin rivets? I'm just curious to know people's thoughts.

I'm fairly certain there is 7mm wedge riveted provided by some of the Indian suppliers. There is a UK based company who has 7mm wedge riveted voiders.

[Seesinsilhouette]

Sorry to sound like a broken record!

[Tom B.]

I imagine it will be tricky to change the ring types from what they already produce. I've seen flat ring with round and wedge rivets and round cross section with round rivets but never round cross section with wedge rivets.

The flat cross section I can live with but if they could be made with wedge then that would make me very happy.

At this point changing the ring type or shape is not on the table.
Although I think that is a worthy endeavor it is beyond the scope of this project.

Wandering around and looking at what appears to be out there, I assume that we might have some choices between the types that are made. Maybe?

I think I have seen:

6mm round ring, pin rivet (all riveted)
6mm round ring, pin rivet and solid
6mm flat ring, pin rivet and solid

The sleeves I have are less than 6mm, round ring, wedge rivet, no solid rings.

I don't know that we have any choice at all - but I am curious what is actually planned.

Wade

I would need to double check with Andre but these are the two we had talked about, pricing would be a bit higher than his current sleeves.

6mm round ring, pin rivet and solid = current sleeves (med-large) $395
6mm flat ring, pin rivet and solid = current sleeves (med-large) $495

It may be possible to get 6mm round ring, pin rivet (all riveted), but I would expect the price to go up considerably.

[Cian of Storvik]

I love the look of 6mm maille and the correctly constructed sleeves would be a Godsend, but doing middle of the 14th, I can't see a reason I would need voiders. I'm waiting until someone posts something about 6mm, stainless, riveted, correctly constructed sleeved hauberk. (I had a mild steel one before and it discolored everything it touched - it was like a reverse of king Midas). I figure by the SS6mmRivHaub premiers I'll have the $4k-$5k it will cost to buy one.

I can't believe between here and MyArmoury, with the number of individuals portraying 15th-16th century, that you can't get a dozen enthusiastic individuals for mild 6mm riveted, properly constructed voiders for that price.
-Cian

[Tom B.]

I love the look of 6mm maille and the correctly constructed sleeves would be a Godsend, but doing middle of the 14th, I can't see a reason I would need voiders. I'm waiting until someone posts something about 6mm, stainless, riveted, correctly constructed sleeved hauberk. (I had a mild steel one before and it discolored everything it touched - it was like a reverse of king Midas). I figure by the SS6mmRivHaub premiers I'll have the $4k-$5k it will cost to buy one.

I can't believe between here and MyArmoury, with the number of individuals portraying 15th-16th century, that you can't get a dozen enthusiastic individuals for mild 6mm riveted, properly constructed voiders for that price.
-Cian

Well I have not been able to post about it on MyArmoury yet.
They have some pretty strict rules about marketing posts.
My account there is just a normal individual account there fore I can not post a bout a commercial offer.
I would need to have a Manufacturer / Seller Rep. Account to make that sort of listing.
Since I am not really part for Ice's business I can't really apply for an account in his company's name or any account claiming to be a rep. for him.

I sent the moderator an e-mail and a link to this AA thread and was told that any post there would have to be done through a manufacturer / seller account.

[Mark Hale]

On an aside note, whilst working on this project is there any chance of developing braies d'acier? ( sorry if I have misspelt that). I'm certain they would be popular!

Michael

For info, I'm currently working on maille braies in the UK. Going well so far.
www.capapie.co.uk

[Marshal]

I love the look of 6mm maille and the correctly constructed sleeves would be a Godsend, but doing middle of the 14th, I can't see a reason I would need voiders. I'm waiting until someone posts something about 6mm, stainless, riveted, correctly constructed sleeved hauberk.

Looking at the picture of the one Tom is wearing, it seems like all of the hardest work of an hauberk has been done already, and it wouldn't be difficult to turn them into one...

I have something hanging over my head which prevents me from committing to spending money on these sorts of luxuries at present, or I'd be all over this.

[Tom B.]

I am trying to make a list of those 100% in, those interested, etc.
After re-reading this thread here is my list please correct me if I am wrong.

1. Tom B. (100% in)
2. Michael, Seeinsilhouette (100% in)
3. Otto von Teich (not quite 100% yet)
4. Keegan Ingrassia (interested but depends on the timing)
5. Paladin74 (interested but depends on the timing)


Remember that Ice's policy on these orders is you pay 50% now and the remaining 50% when it ships.
In the past his quoted time between order and shipment to the customer has been 3 months.
This can help to make cost a little easier to deal with.

Come on you know you need some really nice mail sleeves.

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Come on you know you need some really nice mail sleeves.

I really do. My current project is my aketon, and I was going to build these exact sleeves to go over it.

[Murdock]

Let me know what the final dimensions are. I'm generally interested in getting one, but as most of you know, i'm not tall. So the elbow bend does me no good it the elbow is on my forearm.

[Keegan Ingrassia]

I suppose if the sleeve above the elbow is too long, Murdock, you could just cut the sleeve above the elbow and remove a few rows to get to the right length. Take out a column or two in the upper part to match the taper, then stitch back together. Its a bit of tailoring, sure, but a lot less tailoring than trying to take a tube and turn it into a tapered sleeve with an elbow bend.

[Mac]

I brought Wade's two sleeves home with me from NC, and I am looking carefully at them. Well.... first I'm patching up some of the damaged areas with butted rings. This makes it easier to see what is going on. Luckily, most of the damage is in non-tailored areas, so my "stabilization" of the fabric does not run the risk of altering anything. (Wade, these sleeves are gon'a look a lot less ratty when you get 'm back.)

I am also looking at some pics of mail sleeves and shirts, as well as rereading Burgess' articles. Most sleeves seem to be pretty similar. The main differences are in how the reduction of the upper arm is handled. In some, it appears to be done down the lower center line. In others the reductions proceed in a slanting line from the elbow to the point where the cross grain juncture of the armpit ends. Both of Wade's sleeves are of the later sort.

At this point, I could probably start on the exemplar as soon as I have materials.

Mac

[Russ Mitchell]

Been following this thread; not in the market b/c of funds, but as one of the guys who might benefit down the road, I'd just like to toss in a hearty THANK YOU.

[Chris Gilman]

Mac just told me about this and it sounds like a great thing. I think I would be game for 1 or 2 pair depending on size and final cost.

Chris Gilman

[Mac]

I am finding that the construction of Wade's sleeves is a very common one.

Mac

[Duke Icefalcon]

I have been out of the loop for the last 2 weeks. Duty and such. When you come to a concencus of what material you want to lose, let me know. You can order from any of the materials I currently carry.


Cheers!

Ice

[Mac]

I have marked out the "funny rings" on Wade's two sleeves. Although the sleeves are of very different manufacture, the tailoring is very similar.

The first one is the larger, but lighter of the two. It covers about 564 square inches, and weighs about 3lb. 5oz. (1,500g), and contains roughly 18,340 rings.



The second covers about 507 square inches, and is a bit big on my arm, so I would call it a "medium". It weighs 4lb. 9 1/2 oz. ( 2,175g), and contains about 24,350 rings.



They both have the row reductions for the upper arm running in a line from near the corner of the cross-grain joint of the armpit to a place just shy of the elbow. The both also have two lines of row reductions in the forearm. Both of the armpit joints are about a palm wide.

Mac

[wcallen]

Mac,

I knew you would do a thorough analysis of my sleeves. Thanks.

If you tell me how you came up with the estimates on rings and send me full sized pictures I would love to post those on my site and update the descriptions to include the extra information. Actually, if you don't I will probably save the information for posterity on my site - as long as you don't tell me not to.

The sleeves look much nicer without all of the moth holes too. Thanks for that as well.

Wade

[Mac]

Wade,

I estimated the surface areas by stretching each sleeve out and tracing around it. I then broke the sketch into rectangles and triangles to get the areas. I also measured the number of rings in a square inch of mail while it was similarly stretched out. The final ring numbers are probably good to a couple of percent.

The one with the greater number of "moth holes" sucked up about 800 butted rings to get it looking good.

I'll send you these pics if you like, but I don't really like them. The flash produced a distracting moiré.

Mac

[wcallen]

Mac,

Thanks for the info. If you don't like the full sized pictures you took, just leave all of the tags in the sleeves (which I wouldn't mind having anyway) and I will play around with them when I get them back. I can shoot lots and lots of pictures until I get one I like for posterity.

Wade

[wcallen]

I need to spend time to do the same to a shirt or two. I have one good one that is really medieval-ish (at least in our SCA sense) and Western European. I looked at its back and it definitely has some of the predicted tailoring in it - it shrinks in lines roughly in line with the shoulder blades.

I took a closer look at this shirt:

http://www.allenantiques.com/M-14.html

It has aggressive shaping to the back. It starts at about the shoulder blades and tapers down toward the center of the back of the waist. It ends about 3" from the side of the slit at the back. It then tapers really quickly into the top of the shoulder. This would let you move your arms.

It has no corresponding shape in the front.

The collar appears to be "working life" but added after the initial construction.

More annoying for modern recreation, the rings are heavier over the main body, they thin out a little at the bottom and more in the ends of the sleeves. The IDs are similar, but the wire is thinner/thicker depending on which way you go.

Wade

[Mac]

Wade,

I will snap some better pics for you this weekend.

Mac

[wcallen]

Wade,

I will snap some better pics for you this weekend.

Mac

No worries. I can shoot pictures. Just do what you need to do and it will all work out. I can set up lights and play with angles to get a good shot.

Wade

[Michael Cartwright]

Tailor a 14th century hauberk and i'll be all over it like a fat kid on cake!

[Mac]

Tailor a 14th century hauberk and i'll be all over it like a fat kid on cake!

Micheal,

I would be delighted to do that if this project works out well.

Mac

[Michael Cartwright]

Tailor a 14th century hauberk and i'll be all over it like a fat kid on cake!

Micheal,

I would be delighted to do that if this project works out well.

Mac

And I'd be very, very interested to discuss the details after this project (as well as many other mafioso I suspect...)

[Tom B.]

I would need to double check with Andre but these are the two we had talked about, pricing would be a bit higher than his current sleeves.

6mm round ring, pin rivet and solid = current sleeves (med-large) $395
6mm flat ring, pin rivet and solid = current sleeves (med-large) $495

It may be possible to get 6mm round ring, pin rivet (all riveted), but I would expect the price to go up considerably.

Looks like for this pre-order it will only be 6mm round ring with pin rivets 50% riveted & 50% solid.
Andre should have the pre-order up on his site soon, stay tuned here for updates.

[Duke Icefalcon]

I would need to double check with Andre but these are the two we had talked about, pricing would be a bit higher than his current sleeves.

6mm round ring, pin rivet and solid = current sleeves (med-large) $395
6mm flat ring, pin rivet and solid = current sleeves (med-large) $495

It may be possible to get 6mm round ring, pin rivet (all riveted), but I would expect the price to go up considerably.

Looks like for this pre-order it will only be 6mm round ring with pin rivets 50% riveted & 50% solid.
Andre should have the pre-order up on his site soon, stay tuned here for updates.

If this is what you have decided upon, let me know. The next step is to get Mac the rivets and rings, so he can make one for me to send out. After it is made and sent, I should be able to get a hard cost. Not a quick process but it should yeild what you are looking for. I can put up an estimated price and link if folks want but maybe we should wait till the sample gets made and sent out.

Ice

[Mac]

Rings, rivets, and fabric. I'll send ya' a note and we can discuss the next steps.

Mac

[wcallen]

Since we have used this thread for tailored mail in general as well as sleeves, here are pictures of my most reasonable shirt marked for expansion and contraction:

http://www.allenantiques.com/M-14.html

Wade

[Mac]

I'm out of town till Saturday, but my wife tells me that a package arrived from
Andre. This is sure to be the raw materials for making the exemplar sleeve.

I look forward to starting in on it as soon as I return.

Mac

[Tom B.]

Good news!

[Mac]

OK Guys. I'm (finally) back in town and ready to start working on the the exemplar sleeve. I'll keep y'all posted.

Mac

[scott2978]

Tailor a 14th century hauberk and i'll be all over it like a fat kid on cake!

Seconded