The Armour Archive

Today, I began turning a mail chausse into a sleeve. This pic shows it folded in half, and laying over the sketch of one of Wade's sleeves in my notebook.



Here is what it looks like when I have trimmed away everything extraneous.



This is the same thing laid out, rather than folded on its center line. There is a small shortfall at the point of the elbow which I will fill in after dinner. I will also have to add some material to the armpit area. ( this will make more sense when I show a pic of it later)



This is the off-cut material and the dish of cut rings. There is probably enough material here to make the forearm, but I would have to piece it extensively. I will cut the forearm out of the other "leg" instead.



I will post more pics tomorrow.

Mac

Good progress.

Thanks for the update.

I have decided to reduce it all to pieces that can be cut from flat mail, and then stitch it together with brass rings for contrast. There is a thread in "design and construction with more pics. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=157253

Here are the pieces laid out flat.



Here they are folded in half, and looking more like a sleeve.



I hope to have assembled pics tomorrow.
Mac

I got the upper arm closed this evening.



I hope to have the rest of the sleeve zipped together tomorrow.

Mac

There was a bit of a hiatus in this thread while I wrestled with understanding the deceptively simple nature of the authentic examples, and rebuilt the whole damned thing. See viewtopic.php?f=1&t=157253&start=35

Here are a couple of pics of what I have built. I might still make some small changes, but in general, I am pretty pleased with it.



It compares favorably to the smaller (medium size) sleeve in the Allen Collection.



Mac

Looking good Mac! Just got home from Paris and got your message Mac. No stainless 6mm. Is there anything else you need to support your work?

Thanks! I think I've got the ring situation under control, Andre. The brass rings are doing the job.

I will call you later today to discuss our next steps.

Mac

That looks great Mac! Excellent!!

I would be decidedly interested if this would be available in 6mm 18ga flat ring, wedge riveted.

The push for correctly fitting armour continues!

Thanks for your hard work and we are all waiting to hear about hauberks....

James Anderson III wrote:That looks great Mac! Excellent!!

Thank you, James!

Kenwrec Wulfe wrote:I would be decidedly interested if this would be available in 6mm 18ga flat ring, wedge riveted.

Kenwrec,

The pattern will not translate exactly into 6mm wedge riveted. The solid rings of the stuff I was working with make the fabric a bit denser. A clever mail-working-guy would have no trouble adapting the pattern for use with mail of different ring sizes....I don't know if Andre's supplier has such a guy in his employment or not.

Mac

Michael De Aston wrote:The push for correctly fitting armour continues!

Thanks for your hard work and we are all waiting to hear about hauberks....

You are welcome, Michael. I hope to do the same thing with shirts. I am thinking about it already.

Mac

Kenwrec Wulfe wrote:I would be decidedly interested if this would be available in 6mm 18ga flat ring, wedge riveted.

Did we ever really decide what these would be made out of - I know it was half solid, half riveted, pin rivet.. but I don't remember if we were doing round or flat ring. Or even if it was decided.

Personally, I think that some worry a bit much about wedge vs. pin rivet. Getting something that fits, that will hold up, that has rings of (about) the right size should be most of the battle.

From what I have seen neither the pin or wedge riveted stuff in either the flat or round ring is really "right" in the way the overlaps and rivets are done anyway, so we are in the weeds.

Wade

I think we needed at least 6 pair to start the ball rolling. I don't know how many are committed. I expect that when the dust settles and we have final details I will need at least 1 pair.

Wade

Do we have any indication of cost? I would love to jump on board, but it would be imprudent of me to do so without some notion of price.

According to my last correspondence with Andre the exact price will not be known until the guys in India have Mac's exemplar in hand. The expected price is to be only slightly more than the current offering.

This preorder is for 6mm pin riveted round ring half riveted and half solid.

Current sleeves are priced at :
med/large = $395
XL /XXL =$495

Wade is correct we need a total of six preorders to get this thing done.
Once Andre has the price he will make a spot for preorders on his web site.
We will certainly make announcements here when everything is set-up.
The way Andre does his preorders is that you are charged 50% when you make the pre-order and 50% when he is ready to ship to you. The quoted time between order and delivery that the guys in India give is three months.

They do not make 6mm in wedge rivet. You will have to choose from the following:

6mm round pin MS
6mm flat pin MS
9mm wedge riveted MS
9mm wedge riveted SS

What's the latest on this project?

Apologies if I've missed a newer thread that has the answer ...

Mark T wrote:What's the latest on this project?

Apologies if I've missed a newer thread that has the answer ...

I think that we are due for some updates.
Last I heard, Mac had completed the sleeve and was testing the fit on a few volunteers.
He was working out how to communicate size adjustments to the guys in India.

Here is the latest thread.

I am just waiting on the fruits of Mac's hard work and then I can move forward on my end.

Update- Sleeves are at manufacturer. I am waiting for the sample to be sent before I order stock. Did you all decide what type you want? 6mm flat, 6mm round with alternating solid links?

All you have to do is send them an example of what you want.

Mac made some panel-style aventails and we sent them a prototype and they produced them for us. I wish I had kept one!

Steve

Wow...this is moving right along nicely.

Any chance you'll be offering these in the 9mm flat wedge-rivetted stainless?

thunderwinde wrote:Any chance you'll be offering these in the 9mm flat wedge-rivetted stainless?

This is just a guess, but I expect you wouldn't be all that happy with 9mm sleeves. The 9mm flat stuff is pretty bulky. It just won't move the same way. I did "get it to work" on the sleeves I did on my kid's hauberk in 9mm. But it just doesn't have the right feel.

That said, I know that it would work a lot better than a 9mm straight sleeve.

I expect Ice is going to need a certain number of each style so (at least until you find several buddies) the 6mm is what is going to happen.

Wade

wcallen wrote:
This is just a guess, but I expect you wouldn't be all that happy with 9mm sleeves. The 9mm flat stuff is pretty bulky. It just won't move the same way. I did "get it to work" on the sleeves I did on my kid's hauberk in 9mm. But it just doesn't have the right feel.

That said, I know that it would work a lot better than a 9mm straight sleeve.

I expect Ice is going to need a certain number of each style so (at least until you find several buddies) the 6mm is what is going to happen.

Wade

I figured as much, just thought it wouldn't hurt to ask.

Thanks for the info, though. The 9mm is indeed somewhat bulkier, so you're probably right.

This is just sleeves, right? Not a full hauberk? Are there plans to get the supplier to apply this sleeve pattern to full hauberks or shirts?

Duke Icefalcon wrote:They do not make 6mm in wedge rivet. You will have to choose from the following:

6mm round pin MS
6mm flat pin MS
9mm wedge riveted MS
9mm wedge riveted SS

Ice,

All these options include flat, punched, solid, alternating rows, correct? Even the round ring maile will have solid flat rings alternating. Not sure how that would impact the performance and comfort, I have no experience with that kind of maile. Just wondering if that's a factor.

I think I'd be in for a 6mm round pin set of sleeves- it'd look, feel and move much better than a similarly built sleeve w/9mm rings.

Paladin74 wrote:I think I'd be in for a 6mm round pin set of sleeves- it'd look, feel and move much better than a similarly built sleeve w/9mm rings.

I can say from experience that the 6mm rings do look better. I still don't know for sure if it moves better or not. The real risk is in the joints like the elbow and the armpit, which are the exact parts that are being redesigned here so my experience with existing pieces isn't 100% applicable. Seeing all the care going into making the exemplar as close to the real thing as possible gives me some increased confidence though.

Andre,

We had settled on the same rings that Mac used for his exemplar.
Those were half 6mm round ring with pin rivets and half solid rings, correct?

Tom

thunderwinde wrote:Any chance you'll be offering these in the 9mm flat wedge-rivetted stainless?

Yes. I have to order them in larger numbers for them to make them for me. If there is a request for 6 pairs, I will order them and stock the other pairs. If I only get one request, it will be shelved until there is demand.

How many folks are interested in 9mm stainless? They can even be 9mm wedge riveted stainless if you prefer. I just need 6 orders to make this go forward.

I weill not order any until; I have the sample back and it matches the original. This may also change the sleeve design of our hauberks going forward.

Duke Icefalcon wrote:

Yes. I have to order them in larger numbers for them to make them for me. If there is a request for 6 pairs, I will order them and stock the other pairs. If I only get one request, it will be shelved until there is demand.

How many folks are interested in 9mm stainless? They can even be 9mm wedge riveted stainless if you prefer. I just need 6 orders to make this go forward.

I weill not order any until; I have the sample back and it matches the original. This may also change the sleeve design of our hauberks going forward.

How would the pricing change for the 9mm wedge-rivetted stainless? I'll go ahead and ask around, see if I can drum up enough interest to pick up enough sleeves for an order.

scott2978 wrote:This is just sleeves, right? Not a full hauberk? Are there plans to get the supplier to apply this sleeve pattern to full hauberks or shirts?

Yes, the sleeves will be incorporated into the hauberk design eventually.