Gorget market poll

[WinterTreeCrafts]

So, as I finally take a break from building the new house/shop (yup, still at it, a long ways to go too) and actually try to get some inventory made for Birka, I am likely going to take the opportunity of having absolutely zero inventory as a chance to revamp my gorget designs and thus make a smooth transition.

Theres one possible change I am very much on the fence about, and so I want to quickly poll the community.

Right now I maintain two complete inventories of regular and lobster-tailed gorgets in all of my various sizes. I sell pretty even numbers of both. It would be MUCH more efficient (and make the distributors very happy) if I could streamline that into one larger inventory of gorgets with an easily attachable lobster tail "kit". I.E. Rather than stocking 10 size mediums, and 10 more mediums with lobster tails, I or a distributor could stock 15 mediums and 5-10 lobster tail kits (containing the plate, the straps and necessary fasteners to attach to pre-punched holes on the gorget).

The downsides are:
- Gorgets without lobster tails would have two unused holes in the back plate (might be ugly to some)
- If the "kits" use rivets, it assumes the customer has some tools and basic riveting skills, which is problematic. Distributors have the tools/skills, but would rightfully balk at the extra time and effort on a low-margin item. Meaning using rivets forces this to be an in-house change rather than anything the customer would see.
- If the "kits" use chicago screws or similar, making it quick and easy for customers to do themselves, it kinda visually clashes with all the nice solid rivets on the rest of the gorget. They also make the plate removable, which may be a desirable feature for some, but I worry about durability compared to rivets, I anticipate a few folks having problems with the screws un-screwing themselves and getting lost.

My knee jerk is that shifting complexity and futzing with easily lost parts onto the customer is a bad thing, despite how much I and my distributors would love the streamlined inventory. If I keep it all in-house, it would be worthwhile for me, *but* it leaves the unavoidable two empty holes on every gorget thing. Being picky, that bugs me. I don't know if it should.

What do you folks think? Is a removable lobster tail even something you would want? If I keep this all in-house, would two empty holes in the back of a non-lobstered gorget bug you? Are chicago screws a horrible idea? (I've only used them on belts)

[Keegan Ingrassia]

How much trouble would it be to not predrill the two holes? If you create an inventory of gorgets and lobster tail kits, then attach the tails as needed, how much longer would it take to punch the holes then, as opposed to earlier in the production cycle? Would cut down on the loss of time, punching holes for gorgets that won't have tails. Reduce the load on your tooling, too, yeah? Just mentally kicking the can here.

[WinterTreeCrafts]

I've found that in my particular punch, punching metal through leather, or metal backed by leather, makes a very ugly hole with badly deformed material around it, more deformation than the rivet head covers. I.E. Sloppy and ugly. Drilling makes a cleaner hole, but is too slow and the shavings getting stuck in the suede lining is an issue. (As is the oil I'd need to use).

So, from where I am sitting it seems that the holes have to be pre-punched before the gorget is assembled. Either that or I havn't thought of or been slapped by the idiot-simple solution yet.

I thought about stockpiling parts and doing the full assembly as gorgets get ordered, but its too easy to fall behind in that scenario, as I've seen from trying to keep up these last few months while building a house. I'll go a week with maybe 1-2 orders and then a dozen will show up in a day. Given how much I divide my time, it means delays cus I can't just spend 20 minutes boxing up items straight off the shelf. I work best when I can download a few documentaries and plop the screen onto my workbench and just rivet together gorgets for the better part of a day. You probably know how it goes, you get into that almost meditative groove and you just work faster and better. Last time I timed myself it was like 55 minutes to make a gorget as a one-off. I got it down to the 40's per unit if I make them in batches. With the number of gorgets I sell in a year, that matters.

I'm trying to give myself a raise in my shop rate so that I can justify continuing to be an armourer. I need to do that without skimping on materials quality or construction quality. I also don't want to go above $50 base price for a gorget. So that really just leaves me with counting minutes per gorget. So as I revise my designs I am really putting a keen eye towards anything that will speed my ability to churn em out while not giving an inch (hopefully taking a few) on quality.

Breaking production steps out of batch form and doing them individually as orders come in adds lots of minutes per gorget. Two rivets is easy enough, but changing punch dies and marking a pattern on an already-formed shape, cleaning the mess on the leather lining up.... I think it adds too much time.

[archibald]

How about tapping in indentations were holes would be drilled if Lobster back was going to be used? Just a good solid and clean tap to set the drill might be enough and wouldn't overtly distract from appearances.

[WinterTreeCrafts]

Drilling is just too slow, especially since I have to get all the sharp metal bits out of the leather lining before putting it in the box.

I center-punch to mark all of my holes before punching. I think the center-punch mark would be uglier than the empty hole?

[WinterTreeCrafts]

My shop rate right now is $30/hr. So thats 50 cents a minute. Lets pretend for a moment that I get really self-confident and aim for $45/hr which is 75 cents a minute.

Thus turning what is currently a 6-8 second operation (marking and punching 2 holes) per gorget into a 2-3 minute operation for drilling and cleanup, that would add $2 or so to the price per unit.

I know it seems trivial, but it really does add up. Not to mention drill bits aren't going to last a fraction of the time a punch/die set will on 304 stainless.

[losthelm]

What type of punch are you using?

I have decent results with my whitney 7 and using truss head rivets and burrs to cover any fuzzy bits with the leather/metal chad.

Ideally you would be able to have a stock numbet pre made.

This would let anyone with a tape gun to pack and ship while skilled labor deals with production.

At this point you have enough sales data to estimate sales and produce a bunch of gorgets to have in stock.
Doing 10-15 in each stock size and style means you have a bit more invested on the front end for stock.

When its time to do gorgets you would be making 5+ at a time to maintain stock levels.
as long as you keep rotating stock your all set.
Its not like gorgets have a short shelflife.

This would also give you a bit of a cushion incase of injury.

[WinterTreeCrafts]

A whitney No. 8, but with round-head rivets, so they cover less. I generally make batches of gorgets on the order of 20-40 at a time. I like to keep a fairly deep inventory so that I can do gorget batches between commissions, rather than having to interrupt my groove on custom work to bang out a few gorgets to avoid keeping customers waiting for an "in stock" item. Having no inventory and making customers wait a week or two these past 6 months or so has been driving me nuts, and I'm sure they don't like it either.

I also don't like writing the "your custom XYZ is going to be a week later than I told you because I just got a gazillion website gorget orders and I ran out" e-mails.


Anyway, to refocus the thread: I'm really looking for opinions on chicago screws and whether folks have found them to be viable or whether they really just don't belong on armour, even anachronistic "sport armour" like my stainless gorgets. If they don't belong on armour, would two empty holes on non-lobstered gorgets bother people? (Cus that is where I am leaning)

[Swete]

Maybe keep some nice looking pop rivets on hand to stick in the holes if they do not opt for the attachment? Wouldnt have to be for the gorget's integrity, ya? Just fill up the hole.

[Ursus Epicurius]

My suggestion for the holes: Find a cheap but pretty cosmetic pair of rivets to give to those who don't take the lobster tail. There are a bunch out there.

So basically the same as Swete's.

[Thorin]

I agree with the previous comments. Pop rivets just to cover the holes makes sense. Which do you sell more of? With or without lobster tails?
Great gorgets BTW!

[Ursus Epicurius]

"I sell pretty even numbers of both."

[Jestyr]

I think Swete's suggestion is the best, and I think chicago screw or extra holes is a bit hokey. That said, I think you are looking for the wrong solution to resolve the problem.

If space is at a premium so that keeping both types of gorgets is problematic, I would find a new way to stack and organize them to take up less space. When a library runs out of room for their books, they don't reduce the size of their collection, they build a system to access more books in the same space.

If it is not a space issue, then I am struggling to see how any solutions are needed, especially in light that it does not save you time.

[Galileo]

Jestyr - I look at it this way:

Production volume. If they're all the same, you don't have to worry about "do I have enough of type x"?

If he's slamming out 100 of them and they're all the same, it'll go faster (theoretically). Then he can produce 50 lobster tails to add on later as the customer orders it.

You can get decorative chicago screws or double-capped rapid rivets (about halfway down the page as an example)

Couple of quick taps, holes are plugged. Heck, couple of quick taps and the lobster-tail is on.

[Johann Lederer]

I would punch the holes and leave them open. Sell it as "you can opt to modify it to a lobster tail gorget with an add on kit" then sell the lobster tail with two rivets for whatever you want. I do not see where those two little holes will detract from the overall performance or look of the gorget. Just my 2 pence