The Armour Archive

Okay.. Im thinking about churning out some german folding stools and chairs.. how much would it be worth, in hardwood, to you folks? I'm thinking red maple and black walnut.. (possibly alternating slats for some color.. ).

I plan on designing it two ways.. one is "period" and one has a longer seat and back leg, allowing you to actually lean BACK on the freakin thing without performing an instant sobriety check.

Maeryk
(I can make neat stuff.. its the "charging for it" I have trouble with.. looking for suggestions.. prices you have seen them going for, etc etc)

If you could post a picture of what you are talking about you will get input from more people. Just a thought.

Garth

Hehehe.. soon as I get the prototype built, I will!

I know someone has a picture of these.

Maeryk

http://masterjoyner.com/

Extremely nice furnishings; a friend bought a chair from Dan that is exceptional in its quality.

Dan's price list is also a great place to see what the "high end" of the Medieval furniture market is priced at.

Best,
KLP

Yeah.. like the "medieval folding stool" on the second page of the chairs add.. and the chair that goes with it.. (he doesnt have it listed).

If I could get 500 bucks for them.. HOLY CRAP!

I was thinking more along the lines of 80-100 or so, a bit more for the chairs that go with them.

Maeryk

Do you mean the Renaissance Folding Stool?

Personally, I find his stuff to be way overpriced, especially since he uses non-period wood and finishes. "Medievalesque" is what I would term it, with metal screws and biscuit cutter joints. The man can carve, however. The details of the carvings are better than what I could do, but then I charge $30.00 - $650.00, with hand-carved curved tops of white oak chests at the upper end, and "white wood" (white pine) benches & tables at the lower end.
For what he charges I'd expect English brown oak or chestnut dyed with walnut husks or iron shavings and finished with hand-rubbed linseed oil, boiled, not chemically polymerized. And hand-carved dados & mortise and tendons, not router table dados, or 17th - 18th C. dovetail joints.
But then, he sells at a Renn. Faire where turkey legs and french fries are standard fare....

Yes.. the "rennaisance folding stool". I keep forgetting that to sell at Faire you have to call everything (including Roman items) "Rennaisance" because people dont grasp Medieval and Middle ages so good in the tourist trade.

Maeryk

Have you thought of offering them in wood proper to medieval europe? European walnut does not look much like black walnut (save for the sapwood sometimes...)

Thomas

yeah. I was thinking oak and maple, actually. The walnut I was mainly goign to use for the feet and heads simply cause the stuff is so freakin dense and wears so well. (And because I have some I'm not doing anythign else with. It's pretty wild grain, but will work fine for what I'm planning)


I _HATE_ working with Oak, because it has such huge pores, and finishing it is a bear to get a finish most people like. (Of course, most people dont realize what a medieval finish looks like, and judge things with their modern eye).

It's mainly going to be what I can get a deal on, lumber wise, at first.

(Have to make chairs to make money to buy lumber to make chairs. Lather rinse repeat. .. but trust me.. if someone wants one hand sawn, hand planed, drilled with a spoon drill, with the dowels turned on a spring lathe, its gonna cost a heckuvalot more than if I do it with a table saw, drill press, and a couple of chisels and a belt sander).

Maeryk

Can you make me one of these?

[img]http://masterjoyner.com/Images/CH50.jpg[/img]

Best,
KLP

well, I _am_ getting a lathe soon.. but I'd have to make at the very least a prototype first.

Maeryk
Hmmm.....

Maeryk wrote:
It's mainly going to be what I can get a deal on, lumber wise, at first.



Maeryk

And unfortunatly for us wood workers, the price of lumber has sky rocketed with the war in Iraq. My freind and I make camp furniture stuff as a hobby business and it is getting more and more expensive to buy the lumber. It is really starting to eat into what little profits we make on our stuff.

If I had the money I would buy a shop smith. They are about $3,000 but well worth every penny.

the only thing I have left to get is a Lathe.. or the SHopsmith would be a good idea.

I still want a leigh jig or two, and a couple of other things.. a real overhead router table, stuff like that.. but I can make most of that.

For lumber I havent seen the price go up too much.. but plywood and cheap pine has gone nuts.. but I tend to work in oak, cherry, maple, poplar.. and they are not really affected by the plywood prices.

Maeryk

Maeryk

Don't rip yourself off! SCA merchants burn out because it is not worth the time it takes for the money they get. $500 may be a bit high but $150 to $250 depending on wood and how period the design is, is not.

James B. is right. I would have no problem charging $150 for making that chair. I believe the market price on those types of chairs is about $150-$300.

I agree with all of ya! I think many who cater to the SCA get burned out as they expect low prices with LH quality gear, but then again catering to the LH crowd is a limited market. The hardest part is finding that happy medium. The last person I did any form of custom work for was Steve (of Forth Armoury). I've found that doing custom work, for SCA especially, is just not worth the time unless you are going to take the design and make a product line out of it (which is what I did with some "foam cooler" hutch chests). Steve gave his bit of advice on pricing and it's worked out beautifully. As a woodworker, I'm more than capable of working in high end period hand worked reproductions. I might get 4 maybe 5 of those a year. After quibling over the price of hand forged nails with the last one (I didn't forge them so therefor they thought they should get a discount ... instead of .05 cents/nail they wanted .03) (and no it wasn't Steve), I stopped totally. I make only "basic" camp gear (documentable) out of "basic" woods, that people don't mind dragging thru the mud for weeks on end. I've found a market niche and they demand seems to match my ambition/motivation level. Yes I do make "Kingdom/A&S" level work, but only on my time and on my terms as gifts.

Maeryk, there is a market out there for chairs. A big one! I can only spend my time making boxes though. I make chairs as "rewards" or in barter for other things (hand gilded award scrolls made by modern artisans). I'd suggest doing up some in good period hardwoods (some produced with modern tools and some with period tools) and then make up some in "medievalish" style with modern tools and hidden modern strengthening. See which sells better. If you are doing this for profit, go with you provides that. If you are doing it to make the best of the best, then do it for that and open a "work queue". Either way, do what makes ya happy. That's the bottom line!

There is a very nice set of plans for the turned leg sthree legged stooll in "Masterpieces" a book of furniture projects based on stuff shown in paintings---about half of them are medieval/renaissance ones.

Note the pictures are original to the period---they often show more than one example; however the method of making them is not. (the medieval swivel egg chair (Yup they *had* them! with built in candle holder---I want one !!!)) is done using a gluelam for the curved bits---not a medieval solution to the problem!

From abebooks:
Master Pieces: Making Furniture from Paintings (Twenty Original Design & Complete Working Instructions for Recreating Furniture that Appears in Masterpieces of World Art)
Ball, Richard & Campbell, Peter
Price: US$ 6.40
Thomas

Thanks Thomas I will buy that book immediately.

Best regards,
Karl

is done using a gluelam for the curved bits---not a medieval solution to the problem!

are you sure its not a medieval solution? I know they used built up layers for things like wheels and shields.. and boats.. and hide glue can be awfully darned strong!

I realize that using veneer thickness and a vaccuform is probalby not "medieval"..

Maeryk

Okay.. since this has drawn the "woodworkers' out..

whats a "good period hardwood"? What looks and acts like medieval woods? I'm thinking oak.. but I dont really have access (or the money) for english oak.. so whats an acceptable equivalent? Im not going to work in cherry and try to avoid fruitwood.. its too expensive and easy to screw up on, and its often heavy.

So whats a fave to work in? THe reason I dont like cherry is it burns and mars so freakin easily.. and getting color match is an absolute bear!

ANd I recently learned AND LOVE the joys of hand-scraping.. I find myself reaching for the cabinet scraper BEFORE the sandpaper now.. my lungs thank my.. my wrists? not so much. *grin*

Maeryk

Maeryk wrote:whats a "good period hardwood"? What looks and acts like medieval woods?

I've been told that oak, walnut, and poplar were commonly used for Medieval European furniture. I believe that poplar is the least expensive of the three today (note: I am no woodworker, merely a hack with a bunch of Bosch tools).

The two large chests I just commissioned and received from Baron Conal O'hAirt here in Cincinnati are made of poplar and I really like them. I think the tables I commission next will be made of poplar as well - the tables and benches I have now are all solid pine and I want to replace them with a more durable natural wood.

Hope this helps,
KLP

yeah.. oak I can get.. red, quartersawn white, white.. those are pretty easy to get ahold of. Hard on the tools.. and annoying to finish.

Maple I can have coming out of my ears pretty cheaply as well.. I dont really want to work in rock/hard maple, but the red maple I have looks convincingly like hard maple, without the weight.

Poplar is nice.. and turns a BEAUTIFUL brown if you just leave it in the sun enough.. but its a little light for chairs and stuff.

I have often wondered if the over-representation of oak in medieval furniture is simply because the stuff is SO hard to wear out.

Maeryk

White oak is closely related to English brown oak, red oak isn't appropriate. Poplar is an American substitute for basswood and is only used by furniture makers looking for cheap, easy to work materials, as it is a "soft" hardwood. I don't recall seeing any basswood chairs, though. Beech is difficult to work but was used, as well as chestnut. Yellow pine is more appropriate than American white pine, which is a fast growing hybrid developed more for cheap plywood and paper pulp than furniture making. English walnut, as noted above looks nothing like American black walnut. Birch was used as well. I'm not sure but isn't maple American?
I had an English/American tree comparison chart provided by Regia Anglorium stored in the CPU returned to Templar Bob & Hush, if I didn't erase it, perhaps he could post it? If not, then you could try googling it. It's out there somewhere.

There are easier *CHEAPER* methods of getting curved pieces than gluelam in medieval times---like heat or steam bending.

Lamination for wheels? Solid wheels from very early medieval times or from very backward areas I know were laminated but not with glue. Pegged and clenched nails. Very heavy in crossection too! Tyred wheels were made from several piece felloes but not laminated ones.

Shields were a special case where lightness and strength were necessary and folks were willing to pay to save their lives...I am not familiar with built up being used for medieval boats---but then the one I've worked on is a viking lapstrake faering...

When you are pit sawing wood you can used curved sections to start with for knees.

Thomas

Here's how I do pricing...

Materials+Labor+Shop Rate=Cost to build the thing.

Then I go marketing, I price similar items, compare and contrast that sort of thing.

Set a bottom line for you labor, a per hour rate that you absolutely will not dip under. It might mean that you simply cannot afford to make a particular item because someone else can produce it at the same level of quality for far less money. Do NOT sell yourself short and end up paying yourself 3 dollars an hour. As a craftsman you are really selling your time and talent. If someone wants stuff on the cheap they will by shit from Pier One or Home Depot. They are considering you because you make quality handmade unique items, get what you deserve out of the bargain.

So you compare prices and decide what the market will bear, hopefully it will bear a few bucks an hour over your per hour labor rate...thats your profit. This ain't exactly the proper business model for pricing, but its working for me. The trick is to balance what people will pay against what you need to bring in. Through it all you need to ensure that you do not stake your entire business on offering a lower price then the next guy. All the next guy needs to do is drop his price for a while, put you out of business and then raise his price back up to what the market will pay. That just sucks for you.

A wise old blacksmith told me that two things will kill a smith faster then anything, Beating cold iron and not charging enough for his time. The guy makes so much money that he has to invest half of his income in tools to keep from getting drilled at tax time. He knows what he is talking about.

Agincourt has some good points but also think on this. Are you doing this to make money or because you enjoy doing it and would probably do it even if you hadn't gotten the idea to sell your stuff?

That is the approach My friend and I have. We like doing it, it just so happens that what we make other people like as well. So, we charge but we do our best not to over charge or really even charge at market value. The beds we make start at $200 and are by far more structurally sound and substancially more capable of handling larger weight than any other bed for the same price on the market today. We could probably charge more but $200 is good for us.

BTW do you have a pattern for those "s" curved chairs? IF not I have one around somewhere I can get you. It is designed to be used with plywood but the measurements and porportions will work with any wood.

Insane the Irish might be, but he is wise as well.

Some people find that turning their hobby into a business kills the joy of it. I personally feel that turning something you love to do into work, adds a certain element of "I have to do this" to it, but I prefer having to do something I love as opposed to having to say "You want fries with that?"

Still some people can't do it, and you hear alot of them talk about that as a reason why their endeavor failed.

I was doing some searching on the web about woods and remembered this topic. I found this and thought some might find it interesting and helpful.

http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/articles/wood.htm

im a big fan of walnut. its relatively period. easy to work, takes tung oil and linseed easy. and carves super nice.

( currently working a walnut xbow stock.. well current is a relative term its been in the carving stages for 3 months.)

The walnut I've seen in european furniture resembles the sapwood of blackwalnut but not the heart wood.

I would not consider black walnut to be a reasonable substitute unless you are using the sapwood.

Thomas

Dear Thomas, I cannot thank you enough for recommending that book to me - it is the best resource I have ever seen for these recreations.

I am going to ask a local woodworker to turn four of the triangular chairs out for me and I will post photos here as soon as they are complete.

The curved laminate chair with the candle at the top is simply to *die for*. I was stunned when I saw the plans for that chair in this book!

Again, my most sincere thanks.

Karl

I remember after I finished reading it the first thing I did was to take down all the "art" books and start scanning pictures for furnature.

I like that they give more than one period example most times.

The construction is sometimes "modern" but anyone who has the woodwright's books will usually be able to figure out where they are veering off from traditional methods.

I need to make a bunch of the "proverbial stools" too!

Thomas---the modern art projects didn't do much for me...