The Armour Archive

I am looking at what to have my students work on this fall, and what type of helms. This way the customer can get what they want and at a price more to their liking. These helms will be in regular steel 14ga.

Spaingen
norman conocal
barrel
early pre barrel norman
basinet
barbuta

These will get posted and put on the apprentice armoury page.


Thank
AB Hammer

roman ? ..

persian/turko-mongol???

Stormtrooper?

Decide based upon the popularity of time-periods. I think all of those would sell, except for the Norman one- there just isn't alot of interest in the 1066-1099 era. Early period and 14th century dominate.

Good morning, all!

Mr. Bauldree,
it is my belief that a sturdy helmet with some cosmetic and/or aesthetic appeal should begin pricing at no less than $200.

The barrel helms should begin at about $160, without any elaborate piercework for the breathes or filing to the occular slits / reinforced face cross.
However, one of the subtle barrel helms (Pembridge, for instance) with a defined central ridge and a raised dome, should start at no less than $200.

The basinet and barbuta helms should begin pricing at $229 and $249 respectively, in my opinion.
These latter helms, however, will probably leave the shop with price-tags close to $300, as they should.
My guess is that individuals will purchase a helm and then opt for certain upgrades - if such upgrades are available (such as varying grades of polish, bluing, brass added, vervelles, holes punched/drilled for chin-straps, aventail, suspension lining, et cetera).

These are prices that I would certainly pay for a mid-range helmet.

Idëval

Vitus wrote:Decide based upon the popularity of time-periods. I think all of those would sell, except for the Norman one- there just isn't alot of interest in the 1066-1099 era. Early period and 14th century dominate.

Speak for yourself, Sir. I would prefer a Norman Conical. If there is any other early medieval helmets your students are interested in, drop me a line.

Mord.

This is to help the "apprentice armoury" part, to do what the people want for to be stocked stocked, and try to make the pricing as close as the people would like as we can.

I'm getting an all new groop of patterns for them as well as for myself.


AB Hammer

I'd like to see a Visored Sugarloaf with a back point. Just my .02 sou

I stand corrected!

Let me get you a chair old man...

Greetings,

From what I have seen, there seems to be a glut of armor right now (barely used Icefalcon legs on eBay for $100, with no bids!). And thanks to eBay and the Archive, there is a vigorous used-helm market. The actual armorers on the front-line of this market can give a better appraisal, I can just give the point of view of a consumer.

As such, I'd suggest starting prices around $150-$200 for the basics if these are 14 gauge helms made by apprentices with some modern techniques (e.g. welding); after all, basic spuntop starters are going for around $100. There are several armorers who make good mid-range helms and charge less than $200 for them, and some of these helms look very good. This sort of seems to be the norm right now. With a $250-$300 starting price, I'd expect more period techniques, such as raising rather than welding, more period silhouettes, and so forth.

Of course, there is also the question of breaking even and a bit of a profit . . .

Just my two cents worth as someone who spent way too much time this year shopping for helmets; I picked up a Pembridge for my wife, made to specifications for less than $200 with shipping, and an off-the-shelf bascinet with vervelles and 2 interchangeable visors for myself for less than $300, again with shipping. Both brand new, not used, from armorers with good reputations, and I wouldn't say that this is unreasonable or unusual. The helms were made with some modern techniques, though, and if they had been completely raised rather than welded I'd expect to have paid considerably more.

cheers,
Geoffrey Hawkwood

This is a tough question.

Naturally one would say the lowest price possible.

Then again... one gets what he pays for.

So herein lies the dilemma. What is the lowest price I can charge and still stay in business.

To quote an Indiana Jones movie line.
"The experts are working on it".

Hal

Ps: My basic helms start at $250.00

It all seem like it's time to step back about 10 years and look, asking what has happened. There now seem to be 4 markets.

1. The basic SCA for the stickjock mintaillity, (as long as it works) not realy caring what it looks like.

2. The low end income who wants to look good but can't afford the mid markit.

3. The ones who can afford the mid markit but seeing some lower prices want the top markit at mid prices.

4. And of course the top, and historic markit.

I myself have been working on the #3 and #4 markit.
I am trying to set up the #2 markit for my students.
The stickjock markit will give and artisan a headace, and I won't let junk be made around me.

So people need to get newbees to the #2 markit and avoid the stickjock one, and let them grow in the SCA.

isangeles;
The point of view of the customer is what I'm wanting.

DeCalmont;
Visored sugarloafs with slightly back points (not a bad sujestion)


AB Hammer

"Bump"

need more info please.

My Knight uses a helm made by Waldryk. His website is here: http://home.mchsi.com/~waldryk/coverpage.htm

Anyway I repeatedly keep hearing from people that Waldryk's helms are the "best helm for the money" because they are reasonably well-made and he polishes the bejeezus out of that stainless steel. There is a real buzz about his stuff right now.

So I would recommend using Waldryk's prices and styles as a "market metric" for low-to-mid level equipment.

Waldryk's stuff is too basic for my own tastes but people I know around here seem to really love his price/performance ratio.

Hope this helps,
Karl

I also would be interested in a mid-price-range norman conical stlye if it could be made to look something like the conical pictured on Norman's silk road site (to the right, under "conical helms") .
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus ... ge13b.html

If there is any option of something along those lines, PM me!

-morvan

It seems that a reasonable way to figure out how much to charge for apprentice grade armour would be to figure in the cost of materials and then how much *your* work time is worth by the hour based on your regular prices. Take somewhere around a quarter of that hourly figure and apply that to your apprentices' work (taking into account that the less experienced will take longer to make a piece that would take you only a short time). Squinting at the hypothetical figures, I think it will probably work out to something like half your regular prices (whatever those happen to be) or just above half for apprentice work.

Whatever you decide on, this is at least one more option to add to the stack.

Grian

Well if you are asking for what we would like, and by like I mean haveing no real contact with the reality of makeing such a thing...

14ga barrel helm, mild steel with perferated eyeslots for rebatted steel fighting. If it was in the ballpark of $100, to $200 that would be great and I have students who would love to get thier hands on one!

I used to make 250 to 300 on midrange helmets, then the Indian invasion took place and helms that used to go for 275 are going for 185. I find it hardly worth the effort to make helms anymore. They just don't pay as well as other pieces when you figure out how many hours you need to spend on one. Now I just make one when I feel the need to get creative .
But I know I'm going to loose money on it. The Indian junk has taken the bottom right out of the market.

My thinking has the #2 market looking for no-frills helmets, sturdy, but rough okay (sweat equity to polish and nice-'em up), in the $150-$200 range. It ain't fair, but that's almost a week's wages after taxes for a low-income person.

To do this, I predict the need for some automation--for example, pre-cut out parts, some machines made that will "assemble-line" the process.

Jehan, squire of Sir Vitus

Norman conicals would sell if people would make them with nice lines and without the stupid cheekplates showing...

I'd try to avoid the #2 market, as it will be difficult to get something 'pretty' out that will compete with the glut of cheapo catalogs.

I know you speak lowly of the #1 market, but for a beginner who is getting the basics down, that might be your best bet. And I doubt many people would mind having more historically accurate helms around in the SCA. Have your apprentices make quality items that also meet SCA criteria, and they will have experience with the rough shaping and construction techniques they will need for the #3 and #4 market.

As for prices... well, thats really your thing, isn't it?
If you have high quality you can charge more than the basic item out there... but how many people take the time to really look at the quality?

Jehan de Pelham

I agree with you and others about the pricing no more than $200 but I think we can do a leagle helm for $125 as well, and I have a few ideals for that. and then stick jock might like to get a little better looking with there armour.
As for the machines, it will take a few +++ and a few more +++ helms to afford that kind of equepment.

Thinks All
I will keep looking for more info so if you have any more ideals

AB Hammer

OK, I'll up my two cents worth to four cents.

Any chance of having your apprentices make some helms without SCA modifications, that is, basic reproduction rather than combat? A lot of the most accurate repro helms are either way expensive, or in the case of many imports, don't look right and are way too shoddy.

I don't know how much of a market there would be for non-SCA gear in this category, though. I would guess that some living history folks might be interested, as it is hard to get accurate helms without paying through the nasal, and be willing to put up with possible imperfections (which after all would've been period).

Of course, I've a personal interest - I teach medieval history, and find that real armor makes students pay more attention, and also remember the important stuff. Same with demos. I make do with my SCA helms, but, the modifcations for SCA combat are irritating to explain away: all the bars, wide eyeslots, weight, etc. So if any of your students are interested in making something more accurate in terms of appearance (not super-fancy, just not obviously SCA), not for combat, I would certainly be interested.

Geoffrey Hawkwood
Sometimes known as Professor P L Larson