Page 1 of 1

Finger gauntlets wanted, SCA legal

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:17 pm
by Crystoll
Looking to purchase a pair of legal finger gauntlets, ready to wear.
Must be SCA legal without additional equipment, (ie, the lames must make and maintain contact with the rattan when gripping).
I'd prefer stainless steel, and I'll take function over form, ie, they can be ugly, as long as they work.

Tired of basket hilts, and since I'm wanting to try using sword and broken lance, hand protection is going to be a concern of mine.


Crystoll

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:46 pm
by carlyle
Crystoll: Must be SCA legal without additional equipment, (ie, the lames must make and maintain contact with the rattan when gripping).


This is no longer the Society-wide minimum standard. Has your kingdom adopted the specific guideline quoted?

With interest... AoC

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:38 pm
by Crystoll
carlyle wrote:
Crystoll: Must be SCA legal without additional equipment, (ie, the lames must make and maintain contact with the rattan when gripping).


This is no longer the Society-wide minimum standard. Has your kingdom adopted the specific guideline quoted?

With interest... AoC


From the Kingdom Marshall's handbook:
c. A gauntlet constructed in one of the following ways:

i. Of rigid materials that are designed to transfer the force of the impact to the surface being grasped

ii. Of rigid materials, not designed to transfer the force of the impact to the surface being grasped. This style must utilize a minimum of 3/8-inch (9.5 mm) of closed-cell padding or its equivalent.


Now, since I don't really consider flat lames with 3/8" of padding sufficient protection from getting my fingers crushed to a bloody pulp, I'm going with option 1.

Crystoll

Titanium Finger Gauntlets with full-contact Lames Available

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 4:12 pm
by Performance Armour
I make 6al-4v Titanium Finger Gauntlets with full-contact finger lames, and fully enclosed thumbtips, that would seem to be what you're asking for/about.

Polish up to look almost identical to similarly polished mild steel, and weigh about 1/3 what similarly designed steel gaunts would weigh.

Drop me a note, and we can discuss further.

-Best

-Derek Stiver
-dstiver@performancearmour.com
-Performance Armour
-www.performancearmour.com

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 4:31 pm
by carlyle
Crystoll: Now, since I don't really consider flat lames with 3/8" of padding sufficient protection from getting my fingers crushed to a bloody pulp, I'm going with option 1.


It's certainly a matter of choice, but "equivelent" is the determinent phrase. Valerius has been using dense felt for many years, and has apparently found a product that has proven superior to all of the others used previously. I fought in wisby-styled finger guantlets with plates that did not wrap-and-touch for several years without injury, as did a number of my peers (BEFORE the wrap-and-touch rule was instituted!). I have a second, replacement pair in my kit today, and I have another pair of mitten gauntlets on commission with a brigandine metacarpel and cuff (similar to the wisby); the plates on it, too, will not wrap-and-touch.

There are significant ergonomic challenges that wrap-and-touch finger plates fail to meet, the least of which is whether you can effect a functional grip on the weapon (assuming single-handed weapon; poles and spears are much more forgiving). While I can appreciate your concern for injury, I would hazard that wrap-and-touch finger gauntlets are actually more of a risk, since they impose an unnatural finger span and associated effort to hold the weapon. I can say from experience that properly built finger guantlets that follow an historical model are at least the equivelent of hockey gloves (superior, in my opinion), and will protect as well as, or better than, a similar pair built with wrap-and-touch plates.

For what my meager opinion is worth :roll:

Alfred

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 4:59 pm
by Lloyd
Check with John Gruber (Gruber here on the board). His armour is excellent and his gauntlets are even better :wink:

Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:04 pm
by Crystoll
Alfred,

I've had a pair of flat lamed hourglass gaunts before.
Got whacked on the finger one time.
Twas all it took.

My hands are my livelyhood, and I have found it hard to code while typing in a cast before :)

Crystoll

Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 4:33 am
by carlyle
My apologies for distracting from the original query, but your last post got me curious as to whether we were using the same terminology or not. When I read "flat-lamed hourglass gauntlets", I picture fingers along the lines of these late-period gauntlets made by jiri:

[img]http://www.volny.cz/luciusj/pic/ga22.jpg[/img]

I don't believe these are adequate to SCA combat; the plates are two small, and the fingers, therefore, insufficiently rigid to deflect the kind of force we are using in rattan baton combat.

Because you specifically said "hourglass", however, could you have been talking about something more like Cad's gauntlets pictured here?

[img]http://www.mallet-argent.com/images/cad's_hourglass_1998_1.jpg[/img]

Many have made these work for SCA combat, though I personally feel that the rigid cuff prevents many of the wrist actions we have come to rely on for our "sport" (probably an indication that some of our techniques, at least, are inconsistent with medieval combat forms :shock:)

The original gautlets I fought in were made in Valerius' shop in the early 80's and looked very much like this recent pair he made:

Image

As you can see, the plates are not flat, nor are the wrapped all the way around the finger to touch the haft. More importantly, I think, is that there is sumbstantial overlap up-and-down the finger, the plates are riveted to a sturdy leather back with heavy felt pad between metal and leather; and when the hand is closed, the armored presentation in the line of attack makes it very difficult to isolate a single finger. Also, the brigandine nature of the metacarpel and cuff have the flexibility necessary to accomodate some of the "modern" moves the hourglass sometimes impede.

All-in-all, I can respect your concern if you've been "bitten" once already (like you, my hands are my livelihood -- if I can't type, I can't work). But if you are seriously considering finger gauntlets, I would encourage you to invest in a well-made pair like these last two from a reputable armorer. If you are unwilling or unable to make the investment, you might as well use good basket hilts (I use Illusion's currently) and a light leather glove for your sword work, and a good pair of italian export mitten gauntlets (or equivelent) for pole and spear. Wrap-and-touch are just as OOP, rarely achieve a credible "medieval" look (using the "10' rule"), and, as stated previously, introduce their own, unique set of problems that will likely create their own pain and discomfort in your fighting style.

With respect... AoC

Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 9:33 am
by Crystoll
Alfred,

Yep, the first picture illustrates a little closer to the lame style on the fingers that I had, however, there were less lames.
The hourglass cuff on mine however, was not completely enclosed, allowing me more wrist freedom of movement(which brought up a different problem where my wrist could be locked in a bad situation when the open edges got caught on my vambraces)

Now I wouldn't mind trying out something like the third picture shown there, as you said, the lames are rounded somewhat, and it looks like my fingertips would be in the middle of the last lame, instead of being tip to tip.

Thank you for taking the time to post pictures and for your insight!

Crystoll