The Armour Archive

Hi. I want to find somebody who can make a jig that will punch out steel lamellar. Can you do it or do you know somebody who can?

Thanks.

what about your local machinist shop? If you have a design for the press plates they could make it for you, you would need 2 though. 1 for the plats and one for the holes.

Hrogn wrote:Hi. I want to find somebody who can make a jig that will punch out steel lamellar. Can you do it or do you know somebody who can?

Thanks.

Unless you get the parts cut first, you need three dies.

A blanking one to cut them from strip.

One to pierce holes, and one to do any forming.

I could do it, but it would be really expensive. Do you have a punch press? For 20 g stainless for example, a prog die would require minimum of 19 tons.

You don't actually need three dies. You can do it with one prog(short for progressive) die.

Jamie

Yes, a progressive die combines three in a linear fashion.

You still need to feed evenly cut strip through it, and have a feeding mechanism. These tend to run into the thousands of dollars to have made.

That's great for punching indiviual holes in different sizes.

But it's not going to punch six to ten precisely placed holes in a plate that's 1.5 by two inches.

Yes, it would cost thousands to build a die like that. The strip doesn't need to be real precise. Strips can also be hand fed instead of machine fed. I supposed it depends on how many need to be stamped, a couple hundred, I'd feed it by hand. A couple thousand or more, machine fed.

Turret press definately wouldn't be my first choice for lamellar.

Jamie

I'm not a tool and die maker, but I had a year and a half of machinist training. Tools like this are made with hardened tool steel inserts, and very precise fits. You are probably not going to get some guy in a garage shop being able to whip one up for a few hundred bucks.

Now a simple embossing die is a different matter. Those can be ground and and finished with die grinders,but will take a while. In the long run, laser cutting is probably to most economical option, Get your pattern into a cad file and have a company cut the blanks and holes.

Then emboss them in a hand press.

Hi,

Try these folks;

www.wilsontool.com

Ronald

Hello:

Hope no one minds....you might want to tryJim at Salamander Armoury..he has been making a lot of dies for his presses, some of which are punching dies...

he can be reached at

Jim@atar.com

Hope this helps.

Vegas Vic

The dies that Jim is making for his press are totally different than a die for punching lamellar. I doubt he'd be able to make one.

I am a machinist and work on dies. InfinitySteel is right, it's a very precise setup. While a lot of work can be done in the soft stage (before heat treat) a lot of it is done with hardened steel. Let's say it's 20 guage stainless that's about 0.036 inches thick. Let's say that you're using a basic clearance of 5%. That makes the die clearance (the gap between the punch and the die) at 0.0018 inches. That's beyond a lot of machine shops. Some of the dies we've made at work have 0.000050 die clearance.

Laser cutting or waterjet is much more economical in the short run.

Jamie

Yes it is called a die not a jig.
On engineering documentation the word jig is removed on a as needed basis from the nomenclature...

I to have worked with punch press dies. Let me do a ball park sum using what they cost 25 years ago.
Now you do have a large punching press?
To cover the cost of the die, sales must be high and an automatic power press would be the way to go.

Design engineering cost:___________________________2000.00 to 6000.00 Cad model and shop drawings.
Tooling machining cost:___________________________38000.00 Single stage die, holes and outline.

This will be a two post spring return self contained die set with ejector. Single shot manual load 18ga. mild steel strip.

It would run on an antique like this:
http://inv.wencomachinery.com/machpict/008566/1250.jpg

No I do not make dies anymore.

Note: take this estimate with a grain of salt, as this is what a similar die for the punching industry would cost.
Just my ramblings.

Now if you would like to get fancy... for a little extra... one could get the stamped rolled edges with a pattern embossed across the plate. It would be a CNC cut carbon electrode that is EDM'ed into the upper press die.

Any artwork can be transfered to the steel. Your imagination is the limit.

Hal

Halberds wrote:Note: take this estimate with a grain of salt, as this is what a similar die for the punching industry would cost. Just my ramblings.

It has changed a little bit, truthfully, it would probably cost betweek 5,000 and 10,000 now. CNC and wire edm have decreased cost and increased accuracy.

Halberds wrote:It would be a CNC cut carbon electrode that is EDM'ed into the upper press die.

Guess what I do?

That punch press would work great.

One conversation I had with a few people about this topic yielded some numbers. Some stamping houses quoted up to 2.00 per piece for up to 10,000 pieces. They would have preferred at least ten times that to make it feasible and economical.

Jamie

Jamie

Yes the numbers are overwhelming to make the price of tooling on par with the estimated sales.

Now with that out of the way...

How can one make a simple you hammer it punch thingie.

I think it would be hit with a long handle sledge of about 10 to 12 pounds.
The cutting die would be spring loaded to the base with an polyurethane ejector.
This is the cheapest one can go. It should be bolted to the dishing stump.
Better yet would be a real press.....

I like the idea of the CNC and Wire EDM Dies. we still need that to make this cheap though.

After all this is not a fly-by-night outfit....

Hal

It's easier to just set up with an eccentric and a lever Halberds.

I like big levers. Thanks.

Polarbearforge.

I bet you do EDM machining. Yes?
Not to mention setting fire to your exhaust vent filters....
Some things one never forgets....

Hal

I work in a machine shop that does a lot of punch and die work as well as a bit of mold work. I (as the apprentice) and our shop foreman (as the journeyman...we have no master) have just completed a set of 4 diesets for an aluminium doorframe manufacturer. I was able to get a copy of the shop talley sheet for one of the smaller ones. This die is intended to cut a small rectangular notch from the side of an aluminium extrusion. One hit, no progressive operations, no curved surfaces, no wire work...dead simple. (much simpler than a lamalar scale requires)

tool steel $184.
4 post die shoe 751.
labor 89 hours @ $85./hr (shop rate) 7565.
shop total: $8500.

This does not include design time (the customer provided us with a finished design), some outside work on the die shoe, shipping and handeling, rework (hopefully none but we don't know yet) and a bunch of other expenses that the front office adds. I have no way of knowing what the customer will actualy pay but that should give you some idea of the real build cost.

hi knutt and gang

I have a 10 tom punch press and looked into making dies for scales at one point.

the costs wer much too expensive to consider it done professioinally.

I have a few knight friends who work in machine shops who looked at making dies for me.

turned out to be too much time and expense for dies to punch stainless ot worse titanium.

go lazer its cheaper.

mrks

So, how come nobody has mentioned abrasivejet?
I thought it was supposed to be getting more accurate and cheaper these days.

I also have a friend who is trying to make a really complicated set of lamellar (they have a B shape and about 12 holes). He's thinking about making his own die (good luck) but after war I'm going to pitch him on the idea of wiss snips, files, and whitney punches.

If you're only going to cover yourself, that's by far the most economical option.

You may wish to investigate laser/waterjet cutting. A shop that has a laser or waterjet cutter can cut the scales, and put the holes in them. Generally, such a shop can also provide deburring.

The savings in time and hassle maybe something you wish to consider. To find a shop in your area, visit http://local.yahoo.com/ and plug in "laser cutting" and your city.

-- Gest

My wife and I investigated getting a die made up for lamellar about 5 years ago now. My wife's family owned a Cook and Bakeware manufacturing plant with access to hydraulic presses up to 100 tons and a trained work force. Using her families connections (going back 30+ years in the industry) we found a die and tool maker who would make the progressive die for us; cost $6500.

Based off that, we did the profit/loss projections and realized that it would take years to recoup the cost of startup, making it just not worth it.

With a kick shear, belt sander, drill press and a bench punch, you can turn out pretty damn good lamellar, that's ready to use, for a very small investment ($1500 to $2000 at most; if you find good deals you can do it for under $1000); all it takes is the desire to do lots of repetative work and you could dominate the armour industry and become "the" guy to go to for lamellar. However, most people aren't interested (or dedicated enough) to do that, and decide to go with paying someone else to do the work.


Frederich