The Armour Archive

"GK...alsmot did..My order was 6 months late! And even he isnt takign anymore orders! "

That is a bunch of crap, I saw the whole project from beginning to end, Kelson had to wait for measurments and the finnished product sat for several weeks waiting for payment and you got a piece worth way more than you paid for it and you still bitch.

I was a professional armour and I have trained and helped many people over the years, and so has Kelson and Cet, you were upset over Cet "Freaking out" he rarely does that, in fact he is one of the mellowest, levelest headed people I know.

Ronald

PS Can we please keep this on-topic.

MJBlazek wrote:Cet, before you FREAK out...what I meant was...


Doesnt every armorer NOT train? You show me 5 professional armorers that train others in thier staff to take over if something should happen to them.




GK...alsmot did..My order was 6 months late! And even he isnt takign anymore orders!

No Hal didnt...but Hal isnt trying to do this as a full time business

I dont train anyone, i have no staff, and no intrest in having a staff. People hire me because they want my skills. My hand and my eye.
Kelson is likely not taking work because his que is full, to take on more work would not be responsible.
I did not accpet a gauntlet comission from you because it would be irresponsible to do so. That could lead to me being late on the comission making your experience unsatisfactory. Your posts seem to indicate taht you were dissatisfied with Kelson being late, If i bit off more than i could take on and was late on your comission would you come here and vent about it?
I have very strict guidelines when it comes to comissions, how many, deposit etc etc. Sticking to these has made sure my customers have had a good experience with me.
I have actually had people mad at me for not accepting a comission, they took it personally and bitched about it to people, the sca is a small place, it got back to me, yet i did not take the comission because i was insure i could make the item to my regular standards and complete it on time.
Anyone who orders from a craftsman should walk a mile in his shoes.
I am not a production line, i am a one man operation offering items "by my hand" which is what people want from me.
Its a very hard way to make a living, No workmans comp, no paid sick days, no paid holidays and my boss is a jerk
Everyday i think about closing my shop down.

Ronalds' got it right, and befor thinking about telling me I don't know the story you should know that Kelson rented shop space from me so I know what went on with his projects quite well.
Your cuirass was late by several weeks but at least have that time was 1) You ordering strapping from a second armourer for Kelson to install- those arrived a few days late and then weren't what you'd described as having expected- a couple weeks waiting for you to decide what to do about that. 2) Waiting for critical measurements from you. I see this alot: someone is told a project will take 4 weeks on the 1st then farts around providing measuremnts till the 15th and then cries on the 30th that the jobs late. That shit don't wash. 3) Start dates are when deposits and final details arrive not when your first inquire about a project. 4) The cuirass sat here for the better part of two weeks befor final payment arrived and it got shipped out.

On Kelsons' end he had to switch from full time armouring between accepting your commision and when he was schedualed to start it. He busted his ass workihg a full time job and then driving 25 miles past his place to my shop to work on your job. And as soon as he heard you where worried he jumped right on to this list apologized and let you know the progress and what was going on. If you'd contacted him privately it would have been the same you didn't. Don't say you tried and couldn't get in touch either; he was the reignign King of the East and not very hatrd to find for a guy playing SCA in new England.

I'm the last person to defend armourers who screw people over- there's Laurels I wouldn't have in my shop because he's ripped of friends of mine, but I wont stand by silently while you get pissy because you got $1000 cuirass for under $700 and it was a couple weeks late. Next time you want to lump guys like Kelson into the same group as the guys who really do rip people off make sure you know whos listening to call you on your bullshit.

Sorry I misunderstood you first post but it reaaly easn't very clear

AB Hammer wrote:MJBlazek

AB...going...with lots of peoples money

AB isn't going anywhere and slander like that causes alot more problems. I do mean slander. If you know of anybody send me a PM or a email, so I can make things right, but don't go saying things that are not true. I have had to deal with more than my shair of overblown slander all to long.

I still have a 99% saticfaction rate over the last 20 years

Hi Alan,
While I have your attention....
I do think MJBlazek has got it right. If you need names of people you owe money or armour to, I can start the list with my name...

Remember the stainless breastplate with faulds and tassets I ordered? I am still missing the faulds and tassets. It has been over 5 years now. I got tired of calling or writing every week without answer. So I gave up on the rest of the armour and the gift you promised for being 4 years late in delivery.

I do believe you are a good man, but you do take money and not deliver... Call it what you want...

Daniel Gélinas

dbonneval

PM sent

and what email where you writing too. I have had email address changes.

Alan are you going to be at home Sunday? I can come down and pick up my gauntlets. If you are not going to be home let's arrange for them to be left on the porch or with a neighbor shall we?

I looked at a map of UPS locations around VineGrove and it does suck that it is a 15 mile round trip to the nearest one. Have you considered using their pick up services. They will arrange to stop at your address at what ever intervals you want and take the packages. You pay by getting billed by UPS. This would deal with the time constraints very well. IT does not cost that much if you have a good flow of stuff going out the door.

Captain Jamie

excepet for someone who hasnt gotten thier order in 5 years eh?

I dont need to slander you sir....this thread has told me enough! Ill never buy from you.


But to clarify...

I did not mean that you are "dissapearing with peoples money"
What I gathered from this thread is that you arent producing as much. And that you are struggling to catch up to those who you owe things. As in your
business is dissapearing


This thread gave you no shining reccomandation for someone looking for an armorer.




Wilmont:
1: Do I like my armor? Yes
2: Would I send someone to GK? Yeah probably with a warning that they might have to wait for longer than they want to, or are told its going to take, and that the armorer might not be in contact with them as much as they like.

I gave a shining review of Kelson...with those to points clearly stated that I DID NOT get my armor at the time quoted, and I DID NOT have constant contact with him.
Two things I find very important in buying this kind of stuff, becuase as i stated before, the list of reputable armorers is dwindling. NOT because they are running off with peoples money, but becuase a lot of them are just not doing it anymore!

"excepet for someone who hasnt gotten thier order in 5 eh?

I dont need to slander you sir....this thread has told me enough! "


What?

Ron

PS You owe Kelson a apology

"I gave a shining review of Kelson...with those to points clearly stated that I DID NOT get my armor at the time quoted, and I DID NOT have constant contact with him.
Two things I find very important in buying this kind of stuff, becuase as i stated before, the list of reputable armorers is dwindling. NOT because they are running off with peoples money, but becuase a lot of them are just not doing it anymore!"

Some of this info would have helped, but you did not mention any of it so it looked like you were slamming him and much of the delays were ON YOU and you acted like you sent off payment and was prompt with your end and it was all on Kelson and you have not addressed any of this in your anwser. I think we need more threads on customers to avoid LIKE YOU. People need to remember that this is the same person that started the whole "armour is too expensive" thread.

Ronald

My final payment would have been 6 months earlier if my ARMOUR had been finished on time! I gave him 50% down with 50% due on completion. My first payment was given to him during the WEEK that I emailed him about my order. My final payment was sent within 2 WEEKS after he informed my it was finished. And after Ken Zicker I will NEVER....NEVER... pay for something in full again untill i have undisputable proof that it is finished and ready to ship to me.

Halberds never asked me to. Hell he never even asked for a cent until he finished the piece! If I could I woudl be every single last piece or armor I need from Ron.


And I still think armor is too expensive. My fiance thinks that armor is too expensive. Anybody who does not do what we do thinks that armor is too expensive!

But I have learned to take my time and save up for what I want.

Its still no excuse for missing a deadline and not sending communication about it! And truely the killign blow for this thread to me was the post from someone asking AB Hammer to send them something that was 5 years late!

Whats the excuse for that Ronald?

I know Kelson was King of the East Kingdom during the time period when he was makign my armor. I know he had a lot on his plate. Does AB have a lot on his plate. Yes by the looks of it, he has a lot. Well maybee people need to learn to not do certian things or take on projects when they have a lot on thier plate. I havnt been to an SCA event or practice in nearly 2 months becuase I knew that I needed to work and that I needed to put money aside for school.


Am I coming across as an asshole...yes yes I am...becuase right now, (while not with AB) I am on the "Not Recieving" end of an amor purchase...which means I havnt reacieved purchased armor. And I am goddamn pissed off.

"Whats the excuse for that Ronald?"

I am not talking about Alan, I am talking about Kelson. You seem to be the kind of person that has no idea what goes into making something like the project Kelson made for you, but you bitch anyways. For whatever reason you seem to think that a armourer pushes a button and armour comes out. What I feel you what need to do is to buy some tools and some metal and try making some armour yourself, until then, PLEASE SHUT THE F**k UP. Kelson put a lot more work into your project than it deserved, it was a little late but you got a 1000.00 dollar item for less than 700.00. If you are still wondering why some of us are beating you down, it is because you lumping people who don't deserve it in with those who have really ripped people off. I still feel you owe Kelson a apology because you have slandered his name on this thread and you have not dealt with Alan so keep your f**king nose out of it.

Ronald

MJBlazek

Am I coming across as an asshole...yes yes I am...becuase right now, (while not with AB) I am on the "Not Recieving" end of an amor purchase...which means I havnt reacieved purchased armor. And I am goddamn pissed off.

This says alot (while not with AB) So you are taking out your anger on me and some others, instead of who owes you. This has happened before so I shouldn't be surprised. for most of the armourers who have done wrong or made mistakes are long out of buisness, but I am still around. But the difference is, I do correct my mistakes.

PM sent so you might understand a little more than just the surface.

Folks,
This is my last post on this thread, MJBlazek has slandered people who have not deserved it, has painted the armour industry with a wide brush and has insulted our craft by the fact that he feels we need to spend years profecting our craft, spend thousands of dollars on tools so we can make minium wage because he and his fiance (no doubt a expert) feel that "armour is too exspensive" . If he wants to address this more, he needs to take this outside this thread. If he was so unhappy with Kelson as to post the remarks that he did after receiving the masterwork that Kelson made for him then I feel that the armouring community should refuse any work that he comissions and should start exposing other twits as well.

Ronald

I agree.

It might be important for armourers to know about
"problem customers" when a problem customer
comes calling.

Speaking generally, of course.


Idëval

Nodding....it would be nice if we knew who the cheapskate troublemakers were. It would save everyone who makes, a lot of hassles by just refusing thier 'business".

They can always try shopping at WALLMART.

Here's something else that I do.

When I read a thread about a problem armourer - but then
begin to see that much of the problem might be the customer -
I send a private message to the armourer to let them know
that I support them and that I'm sorry that they are
dealing with such a conch.


Idëval

That's why you should avoid spending down pays until the order is delivered. It gives you the power to refund if someone becomes a twit.

But I find that is actually pretty rare, most people are really good if you just get them thier stuff.

See there I go, being raised ina family of business and customer service. I was brought up taught that the customer is always right.



I did not grouch about the price when I paid Kelson for my armor. I did not grouch about the price when I paid Halberds for my helmet.

But what some of you fail to realize is that for some of us...the majority of us...is that $600 is a lot of money to drop on a breastplate, or on anything for that matter.

YOUR busnisses are kept in business by peoples flights of fancy.
How many of you honestly started armoring because you thought you were going to make money off of it? Really and truely? I am very glad for all of you that make enough money off of what you do to pick and choose your customer base. I really am.


If you want everybody to be nice to you, then get out of any kind of business. In a professional corperate setting there woudl probably more on your heads than grumpy customers, if you missed a promised deadline.

I am an actor, I use my armor as part of an act. If I dont have the armor on time, I cant work, so I cant get paid, so I cant by more armor. Its a terrible little circle.

Here is another little business nugget for you. Remember, you don't just lose one customer, you lose 5.

Responce moved to another thread, guess which one.

Ron

Holy shit..... I just read this whole thing from beginning to end and I can't believe the shit going on here....

Half of the people in this thread are shooting guns like a blind man with an uzi, then there's those with no clue whatsoever that just want to open their mouths, then you've got others responding to both, and then you have the few that are actually involved that appear to making progress.....

This thread is just incredible......

The only thing I can say is that shit happens from time to time...... I've had to close down my YC Armoury for now as I try to make up for a SUPPLIER that ran off with my money and left me hanging with orders to fill and no product to ship.... then I had my heart attack, lost family members, my prized husky died, and the list goes on...... but out of the 20 some orders I was unable to fill, I've only got two left to take care of and that's only because I can't get hold of the people and they haven't gotten a hold of me.......

I'm sorry if this hurts anyones feelings, but there is no such thing as a perfect armourer...... EVERY armourer is going to run into problems from time to time.... it's how they deal with the problems that sets them above or below others.....

I opted to close mine down, quit taking orders and money until such time as my books are cleared...... in my eyes, that was the best option for me.

Now, some of ya'll need to grow up, take a deep breath, relax, have a coke and smile and shut the F#$K UP. You're not helping matters any when you just chime in and say stuff like "I won't even wear/own <insert armourer>'s armour because of this thread"

Can't we all just get along ????

Lordwulf,
I did not intend for this thread to get ugly, I feel it is a person's duty to have their friends back and when they get slandered in public I will defend them to the end.

Ronald

MJBlazek wrote:And truely the killign blow for this thread to me was the post from someone asking AB Hammer to send them something that was 5 years late!

I posted a request for Alan to PM me about something that was five years late. He did PM me, I sent him the address, and we'll see. I hadn't intended to say another public word about it, but you have now put me in the position of feeling compelled to defend AB Hammer's response to me in public. Ms. Manners is howling somewhere.

-Tasha

MJBlazek wrote:And I still think armor is too expensive. My fiance thinks that armor is too expensive. Anybody who does not do what we do thinks that armor is too expensive!

Actually, it's often the people who don't run around hitting others with rattan sticks who have a better appreciation for what it costs to craft real, working armour, especially that of a semi-reproduction level and higher. The more skilled the craftsman, often-times the more knowledgable the customer, and so when they get a quote that is many thousands of dollars, they don't blink, because they understand what it takes to make the finished product.

It's only in this crazy hobby that people get away with statements like yours, because there are too many nice people doing it for way too cheap and taking a bath financially as a result.

I am not sure why you persist in buying the stuff, if it's too rich for your wallet.

-Tasha

wilmot wrote:Cet "Freaking out" he rarely does that, in fact he is one of the mellowest, levelest headed people I know.

I'll second that. I WISH I was that mellow. He's got drive and customer service, but he's as mellow as it gets while having a pulse still.

Cet's a nice fellow and I'll still rely on him for quite a bit of work on my armour, and possibly a new pair of arms next year after we've got the house, etc...etc...

Tasha McG wrote:The more skilled the craftsman, often-times the more knowledgable the customer, and so when they get a quote that is many thousands of dollars, they don't blink, because they understand what it takes to make the finished product.

I agree completely!

I've tipped armourers because they've underpriced their product, and the prices were in the that range sometimes (for the full kit). It might be just a bit for me, but the armour REMEMBERS those that tip, and know that their product is going to someone who knows how hard it is to be an armourer, and will appreciate their product with pride.

You get what you pay for.

At one time I was the fellow who was ripping on Ice Falcon for his prices and generally being a rectum. Then I worked on armour for two years and learned the trade, worked the steel, heat treated the steel, quenched with oil...

...and ended up with an articulated arm that was substandard, but legal.

I went back and counted the time spent (estimate at $10/hr), equipment ($2000), steel ($300) and prototypes (don't really want to think about that much). I could have bought a full suit from Ice Falcon at the "top-of-the-line" at the time, and left a 50% tip for the cost of that one single sub-standard arm.

Now I had a GREAT time doing the armour and wouldn't trade it for the world, but I understood what was going on.

I made a full appology to Ice Falcon and have bought from him many times since (and left a tip sometimes even).

You get what you pay for.

If you find making armour easy and cheap...congratulations YOU are an armourer now! I found it fun, but I was SERIOUSLY lacking in skill, time and training.

I'll buy whenever possible, and enjoy armouring for friends for free when I can.

Hi,
This is some of what I had to deal with when I was in business;

1) "I had no room to pack my checkbook"
2) "Elbows and Knees need to be atleast 12 gauge to be legal, don't you understand SCA fighting"
3) A customer who I heard from twice a year that would demand to have other customers put aside for his 30.00 to 50.00 order.
4) People would be insulted when I would not give them details of my process.
and the list goes on, this is why some in our business have gone out of business or have devoloped attitudes and some of these asshats with the "customer is always right" attitude keep this kind of crap going.

Ron

After seeking advice from some very kind and intelligent people, I have reflected on my statments, and offer apology to anyone whom I offended, intentionally or un. I let my anger, of being taken advantage of by a person whom many had told me was honroable, become broiled by a post, which I had seemed to miss the point of the conversation, and lashed out at innocents.

Kelson I apologize, you did nothign more to me than deliever a wonderful piece of armor.

Wilmont, I have been told that you are an extreamly honorable man, and I percieved what may have been a joke by you much earluer than this thread as a personal attack and used that as fuel in an argument.

AB I have no outstanding order with you, so I have no justification to say anythign abotu yoru business practices. I lashed out at what I thought was an unjustace when I should have held.

Cet, I apologize for whatever it ws I did to bring you into this argument.

Hal, didnt do anything to you, and pm'ed you earlier. If I was a horrible customer I am sorry, and i still stand by my saying that if you made everything I need, i would buy it all!


This is my attempt to, as my private confidant advised, "admit wrong, and be a man, instead of holding to pride and sulking like a child."

I have wronged three upstanding memebers of the SCA, (a society that I don't as of late hold much stock in) but worse three fellows of the human race, whos vehemant loyalty shoudl be commended.

To get this trainwreck back on track. Sir Vitale, have you received anything at all that would indicate your transaction is going to be concluded with any satisfaction?

Has anybody with an outstanding order with Mr. Baudtree gotten positive proof that they are going to be compensated for the money they've sent to him?

He did contact me via PM asking for who I know that was out funds they had sent him. I gave what contact information I had, and will send more when I get it, but that is the last I've heard of the matter. Time will tell on that note I would guess.

Nikos wrote:To get this trainwreck back on track. Sir Vitale, have you received anything at all that would indicate your transaction is going to be concluded with any satisfaction?

I sent of the money for postage at the end of last week, Alan advised that the items would be mailed Monday. So I would be expecting (hoping) to hear somethign from him today to confirm that that has happened.

Once posted it should take about 10 days to get to New Zealand.

Vitale

"Wilmont, I have been told that you are an extreamly honorable man, and I percieved what may have been a joke by you much earluer than this thread as a personal attack and used that as fuel in an argument.


I understand your feelings about being ripped off. I have had similar things happen to me and I have dealt with armourers on behalf of customers they have burned and have received results (being a Duke with a rep for excessive force comes in very handy sometimes as well as when I owned Rough from the Hammer being able to cut off armourers that were burning customers) it's just the fact that i beleave in being fair, if Kelson had run off with your money or handed you a piece of crap I would have had the "WTF" talk with him.

Ronald

"To get this trainwreck back on track. Sir Vitale, have you received anything at all that would indicate your transaction is going to be concluded with any satisfaction? "

People love trainwrecks, it brought more attention to Sir Vitale's situation than a normal civilized thread.

Ronald

I have people who have owed me stuff for years and years- I don't know why I just don't get mad about it.
In my case, I will finally have all the shields I need to finish on Wed. - then I can start covering them and shipping them out. Slowly.
When it's over I can take orders again, but I am thinking about just making shields and selling them off as I make them. Taking lots of custom orders is just not something I can handle.
People get mad about this stuff- I have been lucky to always have had good luck with armourers. Alan has been late with stuff for me (and for my squires) but when I go over to his house he is working like an ANIMAL -12 hours days and more- all he ever talks about is finding out about some order that he never knew existed- often because an employee took the order. He fired all those people because some of them actually stole from him.
He actually does have a freaky memory. When you can remind him what a guy looks like, he can remember the order. If he cannot picture the guy he just blanks- he can't remember the order if he can't remember the guy.

It's irritating as hell, but that is the way he has been since that car wreck. Was he easier to deal with before? Yeah, he was. At least he isn't dead or crippled. He will catch up eventually.

-Vitus

Sir Vitus, please check the post I made in One Man Shops. As someone who seems to be getting into a business, I feel that you might benefit. BTW, did you sell one of the smaller heaters to GA? A new guy showed up with a White Mountain Kettle and what looked like one of your heaters (really looked more like a triange ). We were all amazed about a guy going out on a limb and getting stuff like this, and then getting the "this is how you hit people" speech.

I got you all beat. A West Kingdom armouring duke has owed me a German Gothic sallet since 1992.

I really need to remind him about that....


Effingham

Sir Vitale wrote:I sent of the money for postage at the end of last week, Alan advised that the items would be mailed Monday. So I would be expecting (hoping) to hear somethign from him today to confirm that that has happened.

Once posted it should take about 10 days to get to New Zealand.

Vitale

No sign of it having been sent yet.........

Vitale