Photos of Dijon Altarpiece - 1391-1399

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Hugeus
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Photos of Dijon Altarpiece - 1391-1399

Post by Hugeus »

Back again once more to post some pics from my 2013 trip. These are of the altarpiece of the saints and the martyrs housed in the Musee des Beaux-Arts, Dijon. Commanded by the monastery of Champol in 1390, the altarpiece was made in Flanders:
Carving done in Dendermonde (in Belgium) in 1391 by Jacques de Baerze.
Painted and gilded in Ypres 1393-1399 by Melchior Broederlam.
It was put into use in 1399.

Housed in Musee des Beaux-Arts, Dijon, France
Inventory CA 1420 B

I took quite a few pics, and some from angles which I've not seen photographed.

Full album here:
https://plus.google.com/photos/10079049 ... P7Sh6DKmgE

Cheers,
Hugh

A few teasers:
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Ernst
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Re: Photos of Dijon Altarpiece - 1391-1399

Post by Ernst »

Stunning Hugh!
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Re: Photos of Dijon Altarpiece - 1391-1399

Post by RandallMoffett »

Lovely! Excellent photos.

Thanks,

RPM
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Re: Photos of Dijon Altarpiece - 1391-1399

Post by Kel Rekuta »

Thanks for sharing! That work was in storage when I visited Dijon. I appreciate so many views of Georgy Boy. :D
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Re: Photos of Dijon Altarpiece - 1391-1399

Post by Mac »

Great pics, Hugeus! It's nice to see details of this old friend.

I can't help getting the impression that the mail on the backs of the legs is serving as the "strap" for the cuisse. It seems like the mail is riveted to the inner edge of the main plate and the back edge of the side plate. The buckles on the outside of the leg would adjust the assembly.

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Ernst
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Re: Photos of Dijon Altarpiece - 1391-1399

Post by Ernst »

Or, the mail is sewn to a leather which is riveted....
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Re: Photos of Dijon Altarpiece - 1391-1399

Post by Mac »

Ernst wrote:Or, the mail is sewn to a leather which is riveted....
That's what I should have said.

Mac
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Re: Photos of Dijon Altarpiece - 1391-1399

Post by Ernst »

Now I've got to keep my eye out for cuisses with a row of rivets down the edge, and see if they have mail covering the back of the thigh.
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Re: Photos of Dijon Altarpiece - 1391-1399

Post by wcallen »

Mac,

I had exactly the same impression (before I read your post). It appears that the sculptor really meant for the things on the outside of the cuisses to be buckles. And there are lots of rivets right where you would need them to secure the leather to secure the mail. A whole new interpretation for me.

Wade
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Re: Photos of Dijon Altarpiece - 1391-1399

Post by Mac »

Wade,

I have done something like that with leather, rather than mail, but cut away in the back of the knee. Folks say it's comfortable.

Note; that the Chartres cuisse has slots for straps or buckles on the outside, and has rivets along the medial edge. Perhaps it used to haves a back plate, and was originally set up like the St. George altarpiece.

ImageImage

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Re: Photos of Dijon Altarpiece - 1391-1399

Post by wcallen »

I had always interpreted the Chartres cuisses as being reasonably complete, just missing the interesting straps. Of course the inside could be a more solid leather thing... or this mail interpretation. And there is no reason that there couldn't be another plate on the outside. I just hadn't thought of it that way.

I have done a smaller version of the same thing - a really wide (many inches) "strap" secured to the inside of the cuisse that held the buckle and a strap from the outer edge that engages it. It worked fine that way too.

Always more oddities to think about.

In general buckles on the outside seem like a good way to get things cut, but it definitely keeps them away from the inside of the leg where they would interfere with the horse and saddle. If we assume that this is the way things worked, then we can also assume that they were not at all worried about contact between the horse and the lower leg. They put straps and buckles all over the inside of the greave. This is at least somewhat different from some of the modern riding styles.

Anyway... anyone got more comments about other parts of the statue? The gauntlets look more flaired on the inside of the wrist than is typical of the survivors.

Wade
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Re: Photos of Dijon Altarpiece - 1391-1399

Post by Mac »

Looking again at the Chartres cuisse, I see holes along the outside edge. Presumably, it had some of that gilt ornamentation that the Revolutionaries stripped away all of except that little bit one toe of the sabaton. If it did have a back plate, it must have gone inside the main plate, rather than over it; otherwise it would have obscured the bling.

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Re: Photos of Dijon Altarpiece - 1391-1399

Post by Mac »

wcallen wrote: The gauntlets look more flaired on the inside of the wrist than is typical of the survivors.

Wade
Quite so. It's a very SCA-friendly sort of cuff, ain't it?

I really like the green leather gloves. We need to see more of that sort of thing.

Mac
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Re: Photos of Dijon Altarpiece - 1391-1399

Post by Thansen »

I'm intrigued by what look like points on the bottom edge of the avantail -- tying in a lining or pointing the bottom edge of the aventail down?
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Re: Photos of Dijon Altarpiece - 1391-1399

Post by Keegan Ingrassia »

Indeed! It seems to have popped up occasionally. Here's a couple nearly identical ones from France, 1393 and 1395, with the same points.

Hugues and Simon de Roucy
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/1368/1182/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/1367/1181/
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Re: Photos of Dijon Altarpiece - 1391-1399

Post by Galleron »

Mac wrote:
wcallen wrote: The gauntlets look more flaired on the inside of the wrist than is typical of the survivors.

Wade
Quite so. It's a very SCA-friendly sort of cuff, ain't it?

I really like the green leather gloves. We need to see more of that sort of thing.

Mac
Similar green gloves here:

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4317/7113/
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Re: Photos of Dijon Altarpiece - 1391-1399

Post by Tom B. »

Also I have a friend local, in Dijon, who has offered to take additional detailed shots if needed.
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Re: Photos of Dijon Altarpiece - 1391-1399

Post by Sean M »

A St. George from the Church of St Peter and Maria, Cologne seems to have cuisses with mail backs. Some of the leather is exposed at the inner thigh, so they could be confused with laced leather cuisses.

Image


https://effigiesandbrasses.com/1813/5128

(Found while I was trying to Find the two German effigies with vertically segmented breastplates)
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Re: Photos of Dijon Altarpiece - 1391-1399

Post by Ernst »

That does seem bass ackwards, with solid plates on the inner thigh, and mail on the outside rear
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Re: Photos of Dijon Altarpiece - 1391-1399

Post by Sean M »

Unlike the black jacket in the Bocaccio manuscript, I can't make a case based on artistic conventions that the strip on the inner thigh is supposed to be leather, just the practical argument that laces through leather work better than laces through plate and that some surviving greaves are laced closed through strips of leather.
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