Warclubs 1066-1215

[Nick_HN]

Heya

I was wondering if anyone could point me in the direction of an examples (illistratons, carvings etc.) of warclubs in England or France between 1066 and 1215? Thanks

[Guran]

deleted by author

[marcus the pale]

Go to 1250 and you can use a mac bible club.





marcus

[Ernst]

Chretien de Troyes' Yvain of the later 12th c. mentions a couple of evil fellows armed with copper covered cudgels wound in brass. I've seen later 13th century illuminations of cudgels covered with a lattice pattern: I'll see if I can find an earlier illustration.

The 12th century chansons in the Guillaume d'Orange cycle always have Rainouart armed with a cudgel made from a tree trunk. An image search for Rainousrt or Rennewart might turn a time-appropriate image.

I'm sure images of David or other shepherds will turn some images of clubs for the period, and Nicolle has one example from a Psalter in the V&A of the Betrayal of Christ showing men in the mob armed with such weapons. Where do you draw the line for a "war club" as opposed to a bronze-headed mace or simple club?

[Dan Howard]

You'd also have to determine whether the illustrated club is intended for battle or simply a symbol that the illustrator has given to the bearer to denote rank. William and Odo are probably examples of the latter.

[Donal Mac Ruiseart]

You'd also have to determine whether the illustrated club is intended for battle or simply a symbol that the illustrator has given to the bearer to denote rank. William and Odo are probably examples of the latter.

William, perhaps; but it is generally stated that Odo chose to fight with a mace (in those days essentially a club) because as a cleric, he ought not to shed blood. Although I have heard of other clerics choosing a mace for that reason, the only other example I've seen of a fighting cleric is Archbishop Turpin in the Chanson de Roland, and he had no reservations about shedding blood. He was armed with a sword.

Adhémar, bishop of Le Puy, was a leader in the First Crusade and I've seen him depicted in armour (with a mitre on his helm), but not actually fighting. And showing him with a mitre might be an artistic conceit to show that he was a bishop. But I don't know if he took an active part in the fighting or not.

[Cap'n Atli]

There are mentions of the Anglo-Saxon side usisng "stone hammers" (a stick with a rock bound to the end) as projectile weapons at Hastings. That could be the two clubs shown in the A-S context, above. Note how the head is a different color than the haft.

However, we have a chicken-and-egg situation until I (or somebody more knowledgeable) does further research: Is the "stone hammer" based on documentary or other contemporary evidence; or is it based on an interpretation of the Bayeux Needlework?

[Bleddyn De Caldicot]

Go to 1250 and you can use a mac bible club.





marcus

Mind linking a picture. I remember seeing one of the clubs but cannot remember where abouts in the manuscript it is.

[Dan Howard]

William, perhaps; but it is generally stated that Odo chose to fight with a mace (in those days essentially a club) because as a cleric, he ought not to shed blood..

It is just more Victorian nonsense. It has been discredited many times in many different ways.

1. Odo has shed blood many times in his military career
2. Odo commissioned the needlework and would have wanted himself given the same high social status as William.
3. There is no such command forbidding clergy from shedding blood in battle.
4. There are many many instances of clerics wielding edged weapons in battle. Not a single one was reprimanded, in fact, many were subsequently rewarded by the Church
and finally
5. No way can you smack someone with a mace or club and not shed blood.

[Thorsteinn Raudskeggr]

Weeeellll.....

Me grand pappy told me lot's 'o' times about when he was a mercenary in Williams army and how he & the boys got together and kicked ass. He was the one that told me how William was a little sissy boy.

To this day, he and the other old farts get together in their "War Club", drink mead, and BS about Hastings.



-Ivan

[Nick_HN]

Cheers for those images of the BT, by mac i presume you mean the maciejowski bible? Well the head of my group only allows "warclubs" of this design with the silly spiral around the haft example in lower left hand of the page http://www.themorgan.org/collections/sw ... asp?id=266

And want to see if anyone knew of any other depictions so some verity could be introduced to the group, as the examples of simple clubs only appear to be held by peasants in the maciejowski bible, was hoping there were some depictions of banding on the clubs etc, simple plain clubs aren’t a problem only they are a little peasanty/boring was hoping for a more militia/poorer solider type feel for the weapons.

Thanks for the help.

[Cap'n Atli]

SNIP ...the head of my group only allows "warclubs" of this design with the silly spiral around the haft example in lower left hand of the page... SNIP

The head of your group is guilty of the pernicious sin of (Dum-dum-da-dum!) authenticloning: taking a single contemporary artifact and creating endless reproductions of what may be a unique object, or even an embellishment of an artist's imagination. The problem with authenticloning is that it is imposing uniformity on pre-industrial, non-uniform, handcrafted societies. Artifacts and crafts and artwork have certain common elements and styles in their periods and locations; but each is somewhat of a unique creation. To insist upon no reasonable variation is to misunderstand how these societies worked.

(One of my delights is imagages of ships through the ages: Some artist get everything right, some don't, and some are totally clueless; but folks will try to rig ships that way because "...that's the way the picture shows it." Then, when a gale cranks down the bay, you realize that things don't work! )

"There are no medieval MilSpecs!" (Uncle Atli's Very Thin Book of Wisdom)

[Glen K]

The head of your group is guilty of the pernicious sin of (Dum-dum-da-dum!) authenticloning: taking a single contemporary artifact and creating endless reproductions of what may be a unique object, or even an embellishment of an artist's imagination.

I want to strongly echo what the Cap'n is saying here: I've seen so many groups depend on one or two extant pieces for everything everyone in the group wears/does. It's why, for kit-building purposes, I've always been pretty liberal* when it comes to trying to make everyone look different. Allowing "any" helmet with a roughly conic crown and some sort of nasal, even though it's not based on a single extant piece or artwork might not be considered by some to be "authentic", but it sure looks better than everyone wearing a Wenceslaus helm.



*It's something I like to call educated extrapolation, but there's probably a better term out there for it than that. Do some research, see what things are supposed to look like, what makes sense given the culture, materials, and crafting methods of the time, and go with it. It is not, however, an excuse to go absolutely crazy or do shoddy work.

[Ernst]

You also have the problem of using the Maciejowski Bible image of c. 1250 to document weapons of 1066-1215. I can show other reinforced clubs, like this example from the second half of the 13th c., Trivulziana 1025, fo. 142_:

http://www.mediumaevum.com/75years/Two% ... 0flail.JPG

Wouldn't you be better off finding examples from c.1180 or 1200?

[Nick_HN]

I hear you guys, preaching to the converted and i am fully aware of the questionable nature of using a 1240's document for a pre-1215 group, however as with many people although our head of group is a goodly sort he is somewhat stuck in his ways and was hoping to find other examples of warclubs from within our period as that will be easier (hopefully) than trying to persuade the guy without the evidence to back my case. Cheers anyhow.

[Cap'n Atli]

>>>SNIP<<<

*It's something I like to call educated extrapolation, but there's probably a better term out there for it than that. Do some research, see what things are supposed to look like, what makes sense given the culture, materials, and crafting methods of the time, and go with it. It is not, however, an excuse to go absolutely crazy or do shoddy work.

Actually I sort of like "educated extrapolation." I think it make a nice summation of the point.

As for shoddy work (if I may mount my soapbox again, to beat the dead horse and mix my metaphors) there are occasions when shoddy work is appropriate, according to the station of the person being depicted. "Crude but effective" has always had its place in history (and in my heart) and tends to counter the "museum factor" where all of the first class, unique, or pretty objects are on display at the museum and in books supplied with photographs from the museum, and in all the books showing the same artifacts over-and-over; and the real work-a-day stuff is somewhere on a back shelf at the museum storage facility (and costing me money, if it belongs to the National Park Service ). This gives people another false impression that everything was beautiful, perfect, or really cool. In a reenactment context upper class folks should have upper class stuff, and the artifacts associated with the lower classes would reflect the dichotomy of lesser resources and access to skilled craftsfolk.

This does not mean that a peasant’s tunic should be sewn out of rags; but if the tunic has worn some good, honest holes through the material, then it can continue to be worn for various purposes. You don’t dress up to dung the fields.

To restate: not every sword, helm and shield has to reflect the quality of Sutton Hoo. Kingly artifacts belong to kings; as you go down the hierarchy, things certainly change according to station and resources.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Sometimes a club, is just a big stick with the smaller end in your hands, da?

[Thorsteinn Raudskeggr]

25,000 bc: Grog have stick! Grog hit Dreg with stick! Grog bring home bacon!

3000 bc: Gobel ben David uses staff to kill his bro, Casael ben David. Inherits his fathers tent, Rabbi looks the other way.

39 bc: Titus Pullo beats you down with a rod. Just cause.

450 ad: Helmut kills Gaius with a oaken cudgel. Rome was asking for it.

1990 ad: LAPD whacks upon Rodney with their night sticks. LAPD motto changed to- "We treat you like a king!"

We hairless monkeys love our clubs. A flanged mace is just a really fancy club after all, a way upgraded version of a mammoth femur.

-Ivan

[nathan]

Alder war club or beater (though personally i think it has to be a cricket bat)
Thames, World's End (London, UK)
Radiocarbon dated to 3530-3340 BC

Not strictly relevant, but since IvanIS brought up earlier parallels.

[Clinker]

So really, the baseball bat and the cricket bat designs have antecedents that go way back, and are safe places to start.