The Armour Archive

Anybody have any pictures of Yorkist Banners during the WoR?

MJBlazek wrote:Anybody have any pictures of Yorkist Banners during the WoR?

Which ones? there were a lo' o' them used. Each leader had his own, besides the royal standard,

This is Duke Richard's banner... e.g. as Duke of Gloucester




and Edward iv's banner at Tewksbury



The Yorkists also adopted the motif of the Rose en Soleil


(Image from <a href="http://www.janes-wardrobe.com/historical.htm" target="_new">janes-wardrobe.com (historical)</a>)

More on that here...
http://www.yorkshirehistory.com/yorkshirerose.htm

There are no extant banners pr standards from England from 1453-1483, just to start off with, unlike a small number of continental banners and standards. What have been posted so far are standards, not banners.

Most of the WoR standards you see in modern art and reenactment are taken from an early Tudor heraldic roll, although we know the badges used from a variety of written sources, from the Rose of Rouen ballad, to the listing of the 1475 expedition to France of lords contingents and badges.

In short, be a little wary, as these (what you see published) are generally speculative reconstructions.

I did a pair of the ones from the above painting for someone in silk a couple of years ago.

chef de chambre wrote:There are no extant banners pr standards from England from 1453-1483, just to start off with, unlike a small number of continental banners and standards. What have been posted so far are standards, not banners.

Most of the WoR standards you see in modern art and reenactment are taken from an early Tudor heraldic roll, although we know the badges used from a variety of written sources, from the Rose of Rouen ballad, to the listing of the 1475 expedition to France of lords contingents and badges.

In short, be a little wary, as these (what you see published) are generally speculative reconstructions.

Thanks for the correction, I always assumed they were based on extant images of the period.

Also, what is the precise difference between a banner and a standard in this case. I was under the impression that standard was anything on a pole, and banners were sideways and had to flutter...

Glaukos, where did you find the image of that Livery coat, it's my coat!

Thomas H wrote:Glaukos, where did you find the image of that Livery coat, it's my coat!

http://www.yorkshirehistory.com/yorkshirerose.htm

Awesome!

Maybe it's just me but i can't see it on that page?

Thomas H wrote:Maybe it's just me but i can't see it on that page?

Me bad...

http://www.janes-wardrobe.com/historical/15th%20C.htm

Yep ok, that makes more sense!

Just wondered why it was floating around on a random site


umm, sorry for the hijack everyone. Janes Wardrobe, great stuff, well made. Buy it!

My understanding of banner vs standard historically is the banner is just a rectangle or square with a single device or badge on it and a standard is a long tapering banner ending in usually a swallow tail or rounded end. I'm sure chef probably has a more accurate description but modern terminology of the word banner lumps all sorts of flags together.

Standards are the longer flags, banners are normally square (or squareish).

Standards do not tend to carry official heraldic arms, they usually have a personal device (which may or may not be part of a knights arms). *

Banners are normally the opposite, they show the full arms of the owner and nothing else.

In Graham Turners Towton (not Tewkesbury) print shown above, Edwards banner (bearing the royal arms) can be seen behind his standard (which bears a couple of his personal badges).

JonT

*note, this is historic convention, NOT necessarily SCA convention (I don't play there so I don't know!)

John is of course correct. The easy differencing in visual impact is we know they have a St. Georges cross at the hoist in mid 15th century England, which is a holdover from the French wars, I believe.

Standards are usually in livery colours, and bear badges, and a motto (sometimes, not always, and this is English convention, continental heraldry follows different fashions). Thus the standard is not neccessarily related to the personal heraldry of the owner in any way.

There are conventions regarding length as well. I suspect the Duke of Gloucesters standard is short, and should perhaps be as much as twice as long.

To confuse things a little, there may have been something known as a badge-banner.

I thinjk the earliest Tudor heraldic roll that depicts Yorkist standards dates to the late 1480's, so it isn't that far out of date, but it is a bit past it, so we can't be 100% certain in regards to the details of their make up. Exact arrangement of badges, and so forth.