Bascinet with Helm Crest?

[MJBlazek]

Or plume?

Was there ever such a thing?

Thanks!

MJ

[Ernst]

Yes.

http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/cpg359

Pick your thumbnail.

http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit ... rrent_page

e.g.

http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/cpg359/0086

[InsaneIrish]

I don't know about plumes but Crests were somewhat common.

[Ernst]

I don't know about plumes but Crests were somewhat common.

Edited in a third link with plumes.

[MJBlazek]

AWESOME!! Thank you Ernst!!!

[James B.]

Lets just keep this in perspective, we are looking at a 1420s manuscript so it applies to that time frame not to 1340.

[MJBlazek]

Lets just keep this in perspective, we are looking at a 1420s manuscript so it applies to that time frame not to 1340.

That actually works perfectly for my needs.

[chef de chambre]

Lets just keep this in perspective, we are looking at a 1420s manuscript so it applies to that time frame not to 1340.

And, a specific region of Germany. And, it may be purly artistic liscence to identify clearly to the reader of a manuscript which combattant is which.

I know of no exant bascinets set up to take crests, although there are a couple of specialised club tourney great bascinets (made of cuirbolli, in one instance) for the mounted melee of the 15th century.

On the other hand, there is a small number of extant early 15th century bascinets (1390's at earlierst, more likely 1400) with a part of a plume attatchment system (the base an orb which would be a plume holder would mount to). There is also at least one extant manuscript image of a French knight mounting a horse fully armed, in front of a lady, circa 1400, wearing the exact style of bascinet, with an orb mounting plumes at the bascinets apex.

I doubt bascinet crests actually existed, very much, because the use of crests at the time bascinets flourished, was on great helms, and early frogmouth helms for the tournament - worn over bascinets. We have images of great bascinet crests, and a smattering of extant examples that could mount them - again, the context is of a tournament.

[MJBlazek]

Lets just keep this in perspective, we are looking at a 1420s manuscript so it applies to that time frame not to 1340.

And, a specific region of Germany. And, it may be purly artistic liscence to identify clearly to the reader of a manuscript which combattant is which.

I know of no exant bascinets set up to take crests, although there are a couple of specialised club tourney great bascinets (made of cuirbolli, in one instance) for the mounted melee of the 15th century.

On the other hand, there is a small number of extant early 15th century bascinets (1390's at earlierst, more likely 1400) with a part of a plume attatchment system (the base an orb which would be a plume holder would mount to). There is also at least one extant manuscript image of a French knight mounting a horse fully armed, in front of a lady, circa 1400, wearing the exact style of bascinet, with an orb mounting plumes at the bascinets apex.

I doubt bascinet crests actually existed, very much, because the use of crests at the time bascinets flourished, was on great helms, and early frogmouth helms for the tournament - worn over bascinets. We have images of great bascinet crests, and a smattering of extant examples that could mount them - again, the context is of a tournament.

actually, I would be very interested in seeing the orb plum attachment pieces.

[Karen Larsdatter]

http://www.larsdatter.com/crests.htm

[Galfrid atte grene]

Lots of plumes on bascinets 1375 through 1450. Take a look at these 15 miniatures. The one chef mentioned is in there too.

[Karl Helweg]

Yes.

http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/cpg359

Pick your thumbnail.

http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit ... rrent_page

e.g.

http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/cpg359/0086

Thank you for the link.

[chef de chambre]

Lets just keep this in perspective, we are looking at a 1420s manuscript so it applies to that time frame not to 1340.

And, a specific region of Germany. And, it may be purly artistic liscence to identify clearly to the reader of a manuscript which combattant is which.

I know of no exant bascinets set up to take crests, although there are a couple of specialised club tourney great bascinets (made of cuirbolli, in one instance) for the mounted melee of the 15th century.

On the other hand, there is a small number of extant early 15th century bascinets (1390's at earlierst, more likely 1400) with a part of a plume attatchment system (the base an orb which would be a plume holder would mount to). There is also at least one extant manuscript image of a French knight mounting a horse fully armed, in front of a lady, circa 1400, wearing the exact style of bascinet, with an orb mounting plumes at the bascinets apex.

I doubt bascinet crests actually existed, very much, because the use of crests at the time bascinets flourished, was on great helms, and early frogmouth helms for the tournament - worn over bascinets. We have images of great bascinet crests, and a smattering of extant examples that could mount them - again, the context is of a tournament.

actually, I would be very interested in seeing the orb plum attachment pieces.

There are several extant bascinets in Vienna - I don't have the catalog handy to give you the numbers, that have a small brass piece at the apex of the bascinet, which has a hole. Presumably the feather holder, be it orb, flower like object, little stem, or what have you, stuck into the hole of the decorative brass bit and helmet (my orb on my chapel de fer is threaded, my orb on my armet has a fitted plug), and locked or was threaded, and the feather or panache affixed.

The only extant medieval decorative piece I am aware of, in situ on a helmet it was made for, is the pomegranate on the sallet of Phillip the Fair, and I have never seen it detatched, or its method of attatchment.

We just have hints of how it was done, although Rene of Anjous book of the Tournament illustrates posts used to affix crests on great bascinets used in the club tournies described in the text.

[MJBlazek]

Thanks chef!

Does anyone know, as a rule of thumb, how big those orbs were?

Golfball sized? Smaller? Chestnut size? Tennis ball size?

[chef de chambre]

Thanks chef!

Does anyone know, as a rule of thumb, how big those orbs were?

Golfball sized? Smaller? Chestnut size? Tennis ball size?

Going from images - remember, as far as I am aware there is only one genuine extant example (and never set up to take feathers), they can range from a thin tube like object, through golf ball sized all the way up. I think the pomegranate is softball sized, roughly, but it is a hollow work silver gilt object, comparitively light, I believe.

Check out Paolo Uccello's art, the Beachamp pagent, and the Ceasar tapestries to see some of the variety - of course, the 14th c. examples posted in links. They look spiffy, and weigh next to nothing.