Hardened leather armour 15th century English recipe

^ · Post by ^ » Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:32 pm

So I avoided being put on a 72 hour hold and then getting rear ended by a semi who had to go into the ditch as I had to go on to the shoulder to avoid the car infront of me. So I've decided to reveal more information I've been keeping secret.

Index of Middle English Prose
Handlist IX
ASHMOLE 1389 p36
For to make a dowblet of fenste.

Take lether that ys hallf tannyd and dry hym and shaue the flesshe syde and take glue with water and set hyt ower the fyer and melte yt with water and then all hote ly yt apon the lether on the flesshe syde and strawe theron the powder of glaste....
....flesshe syde to flesshe syde and nayle hym to the scyllde and lete hym drye and there nother sper nother e3e tole enter theryn.

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:55 pm

Cripes. I'm surprised you didn't share with us the 15th c. recipe for getting human feces out of wool pants after that.

^ · Post by ^ » Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:28 pm

There are hundreds if not thousands of middle English recipes in Ashmole manuscripts so it could happen.

Baron Alcyoneus · Post by **Baron Alcyoneus** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:27 pm

Germans would just show you a picture of someone in the act.

Great stuff, as usual, Piers!

Peikko · Post by **Peikko** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:23 am

nice find...so it would appear glue hardened leather has a historical precedent.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:41 am

Piers Brent wrote: For to make a dowblet of fenste.

Take lether that ys hallf tannyd and dry hym and shaue the flesshe syde and take glue with water and set hyt ower the fyer and melte yt with water and then all hote ly yt apon the lether on the flesshe syde and strawe theron the powder of glaste....
....flesshe syde to flesshe syde and nayle hym to the s cyllde and lete hym drye and there nother sper nother e3e tole enter theryn.

I'm having trouble following this.

It seems, in general, like this procedure has us making a thing with two thicknesses of leather glued together with the flesh sides toward each other.

If it is for a "dowblet of fenste" why do we "Nayle hym to the scyllde"? I am presuming the "scyllde" is *shield*. Is this the conflation of two different projects?

Do we suppose that "shaue the Flesshe syde" is *shave* the flesh side? If so, why?

What is "powder of glaste"? and why do we "strawe" (shrew?) it thereon?

I'm assuming that "nother sper nother e3e tole enter theryn" means that "neither spear nor (something) (shall?) enter therein". Is e3e a typo? What does it really say?

Mac

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:57 am

JohannM wrote:nice find...so it would appear glue hardened leather has a historical precedent.

Johan,

By careful! This recipe has us gluing two pieces of leather together. It does not have us "hardening" the leather with glue. It certainly does not have us soaking the leather with glue.

I'm not saying that they did not use glue that way. I'm not saying you can't use glue that way. I'm just saying that this document can not be used to justify using glue that way.

Mac

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:52 am

On the other hand, it pretty much matches up perfectly with what I've been talking about with layered leather armor used in the Hungarian leather (armor) doublets (farsetti di cordovani) for some time now. And previous experiments referenced here on the AA show that the half-tanned stuff is pretty stout.

Don't know what the powder is, but it could be a binder, which would help if the flesh sides were shaved all the way down to the rawhide (though why they'd do that, I've no clue).

(edit: I have a treated bullhide and an untreated moosehide still at the house, may have to half-tan them this spring and play with it)

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:07 am

While I agree with Mac that the "recipe" - as is often the case with instructions from the "middle ages" - is not clear on several counts, I'm pretty happy to see the reference to half tanned leather in this context.

I feel it does count as a point in support of something I've been hypothesizing for some time now, regarding the proper starting material for making "real" hardened leather.

I think shaving the flesh side before gluing makes good sense. I've seen some pretty loose flesh sides, where trying to glue them to anything would be pointless, as the outer layers were not attached to the hide very well themselves and would not make a good base for gluing to something else...

I wonder if the e3e tole could be estoc ? It's close enough to make me ask and an estoc is a thrusting sword....fits the context...

It does seem odd that it says how to make a doublet for fence and then puts the two layers of leather on a shield...as Mac noted, we may have two things run together here.

It's really a nice tidbit. Of course, as usual, raises at least as many questions as it answers

Thank you, Piers.

Peikko · Post by **Peikko** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:31 am

Mac wrote:
JohannM wrote:nice find...so it would appear glue hardened leather has a historical precedent.
Johan,

By careful! This recipe has us gluing two pieces of leather together. It does not have us "hardening" the leather with glue. It certainly does not have us soaking the leather with glue.

I'm not saying that they did not use glue that way. I'm not saying you can't use glue that way. I'm just saying that this document can not be used to justify using glue that way.

Mac

Mac,
yes you are right on that...my initial exuberance has faded now that the cold medicine has kicked in. I completely misread that the first time

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:05 am

Piers Brent wrote:....flesshe syde to flesshe syde

This intrigues me the most. We have half-tanned leather and we're gluing the tanned sides together, leaving the surface of the product entirely untanned. What sort of finish could one expect to apply to this? How well would the untanned leather hold up without additional finishing of some sort? What on earth would "half tanned" leather actually be to a man in 1389?

-Gerhard

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:13 am

Gerhard: half-tanned doesn't mean one-side tanned, one side rawhide. It means that the tanning process has only affected the outer portion of the hide, leaving the inside still rawhide.

Such a hide has very interesting characteristics, being hard (but not uberhard unless treated), but also pretty springy -- it keeps a memory of the shape into which it was molded, and wants to retain that shape pretty much forever.

Dobson over in England uses it exclusively for his reproduction work, and the piece I have from his workshop is notably superior to what would be produced with through-tanned leather at the same thickness. (aka, it can be a bit thinner, but still be nice and hard, whereas at least in my experience, you need to use a pretty thick leather to have any serious hardening going on with through-tanned stuff).

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:33 am

Russ Mitchell wrote:Gerhard: half-tanned doesn't mean one-side tanned, one side rawhide. It means that the tanning process has only affected the outer portion of the hide, leaving the inside still rawhide.

Yes - but how do you put a finish on rawhide? This leaves the rawhide exposed on both sides. My modern impression is that you can only really paint rawhide... But that tooling/dying is effectively useless. Am I wrong in this observation?

-Gerhard

Cet · Post by **Cet** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:38 am

Half tanned doesn't have a untanned side it has an untanned core

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:38 am

Uh... you don't. The outside is tanned, and can therefore be finished. The inside is hard and readily formable.

As a side note, this is also what you get if you do a cheap, fast, hard tanning with a strong tanning liquor that doesn't penetrate the fibers deeply. AKA, perfect for "throwaway" leather that's going to get horribly abused and for which it's an utter waste to go through the incredibly laborious steps of lubricating the fibers to permanently soften.

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:58 am

Russ Mitchell wrote:Uh... you don't. The outside is tanned, and can therefore be finished. The inside is hard and readily formable.

As a side note, this is also what you get if you do a cheap, fast, hard tanning with a strong tanning liquor that doesn't penetrate the fibers deeply. AKA, perfect for "throwaway" leather that's going to get horribly abused and for which it's an utter waste to go through the incredibly laborious steps of lubricating the fibers to permanently soften.

In my research regarding half tanned leather, one of the items that popped up pretty frequently was 19th century stuff complaining about the poor product coming out of tanneries that were rushing the process, producing half-tanned leather. For most purposes, half-tanned is a defect and highly undesirable.

However, it's still sought after for Scandinavian style knife sheaths, where wet forming is used with half-tanned leather to produce sheaths that have complex forms and are quite resistant to deformation once dry.

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:02 pm

In England, they're apparently still often referred to as "scabbard butts," and I've seen some really nice sabre scabbards made that way.

Though... for God's sake, punch the holes while it's still wet.

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:29 pm

Russ Mitchell wrote:Uh... you don't. The outside is tanned, and can therefore be finished. The inside is hard and readily formable.

Ah, ha. Thank you for clarifying that. I misread your previous post! I understand the process better now. So there would be no marked difference between the flesh and non-flesh side of the leather after this process?

-Gerhard

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:39 pm

As far as tannage was concerned? No difference.

^ · Post by ^ » Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:38 pm

Mac wrote:
I'm having trouble following this.

Partly because it is only the beginning and ending of the recipe. the ... section is in the manuscript but not in the published edition.

It seems, in general, like this procedure has us making a thing with two thicknesses of leather glued together with the flesh sides toward each other.

What is "powder of glaste"? and why do we "strawe" (shrew?) it thereon?

Never said I knew what it was, just that I was no longer keeping it a secret. I recommend spending a lot of time with the middle English dictionary and perhaps middle English grammar books. I looked at this in the fall when I came across the text. There are often several potential words for each middle English spelling and then things like "glaste" which could be in the realm of glass or in the realm of glaze. I don't claim to know.

I'm assuming that "nother sper nother e3e tole enter theryn" means that "neither spear nor (something) (shall?) enter therein". Is e3e a typo? What does it really say?

The 3 is a yogh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogh. So there is no typo. Unlike thorns which primarily become 'th' so I changed them, yogh's are more fluid so I kept it.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:54 pm

Piers,

Thank you for clarifying this.

I should have been more specific about which questions were meant for you, and which ones I was asking in general.

May we presume, then, that you have only seen published material, and not the manuscript?

...and as to the yogh...I guess it' on me!

Mac

Cian of Storvik · Post by **Cian of Storvik** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:57 pm

egge (blade, sharp object, knife) tole (impliment or tool of war rather then a tradesman's tool).
My guess is "war sword"
yogh could represent a couple of vowel sounds (y,j and g) and due to the non-standard spelling during the period, I wouldn't put it past 3 = gg in this text.

Since egge also was an "egg", It's also possible it could be a "war egg"...Probably not something you want to eat. Especially since it will be of no use against 2 layers of half-tanned leather glued to one-another.

What is "powder of glaste"? and why do we "strawe" (shrew?) it thereon?

Strawe = as in the modern strewn. To throw or cast or spread. I assume they are using it like spread.

-Cian

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:58 pm

OK, so who is in a position to go to the Ashmolean and look at the manuscript? The stuff that was left out of the published version of this almost has to be worth seeing.

Mac

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:01 pm

Cian of Storvik wrote:egge (blade, sharp object, knife) tole (impliment or tool of war rather then a tradesman's tool).
My guess is "war sword"
yogh could represent a couple of vowel sounds (y,j and g) and due to the non-standard spelling during the period, I wouldn't put it past 3 = gg in this text.

I suppose our cognate here is "edge".

Mac

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:13 pm

Mac wrote:
Piers Brent wrote: For to make a dowblet of fenste.

Take lether that ys hallf tannyd and dry hym and shaue the flesshe syde and take glue with water and set hyt ower the fyer and melte yt with water and then all hote ly yt apon the lether on the flesshe syde and strawe theron the powder of glaste....
....flesshe syde to flesshe syde and nayle hym to the s cyllde and lete hym drye and there nother sper nother e3e tole enter theryn.
What is "powder of glaste"? and why do we "strawe" (shrew?) it thereon?

Mac

....And while I'm at it....

I really meant to suggest "strew" rather than "shrew". (I clicked the wrong prompt on the spell checker.)

Mac

Cian of Storvik · Post by **Cian of Storvik** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:21 pm

Ah!
Still the instructions just lead to more questions. If I invent a time machine, my first act will be to go back and punch the guy in the face* that wrote these cryptic instructions.
I've seen more descriptive instructions included in Ikea furniture products.
-Cian
(* = or possibly pelt him with a war egg)

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:25 pm

I've put in an inquiry, but don't know anybody local -- the only guys I know even vaguely close to there nowadays are up at Leeds.

^ · Post by ^ » Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:57 pm

Correct I have not seen anything more then the published bit. The yogh thing is understandable, the yogh generally goes away earlier then the thorn and there is no movement to return it to the English language like there is with the thorn.
I will contact my friend in England who I shared the Ashmole collection information with and she if she can help. Perhaps an online project for Middle English recipes. Theoretically looking at other recipes will answer some questions.

Bertus Brokamp · Post by **Bertus Brokamp** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:15 pm

google books is your friend

http://books.google.nl/books?id=eN4PAQA ... &q&f=false

Take lether that ys half tannyd and drye hym, and schave the flesshe syd; and take glwe wt water, and set yt over the fyere, and melte yt wt water, and then al hote ly yt a pone the leder on the flesshe syde, and strawe ther on the powder of glasce bete yn a brasene morter wt fylyne of yrene y mellyd to geder; and then laye a nother pece of the same lether flesshe seyde to flesshe, and nayle hym to the scylde and lete hyme drye, and ther nother sper nother ege tole enter ther ynne.

so powder of glass, beaten in a brass mortar with bits of iron and mixed together?

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:43 pm

Sounds suspiciously similar to Mamluk recipes of the type.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:55 pm

Brilliant Bertus!

So, the plot thickens. We are now to strew a mixture of crushed glass and iron filings into the glue joint.

Can any one think of what the glass and iron are supposed to be doing? I would like to think that this was "composite material technology", and not just sympathetic magic.

Mac

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:45 pm

Russ Mitchell wrote:Sounds suspiciously similar to Mamluk recipes of the type.

Russ,

Do the Mamluk recipes have glass and iron as well?

Can you post any translations of Mamluk recipes?

Mac

Baron Alcyoneus · Post by **Baron Alcyoneus** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:53 pm

If it is "egge" maybe it alludes to a mace head (egg shaped).

A Google search shows it as "eye", which would be a similar shape. So perhaps they are saying you won't be able to cut/thrust through it, or inflict blunt force trauma on the wearer.

English words of Old Norse origin
... English provenance = c 1205 CE (as aȝe, an early form of the word resulting from the influence of Old Norse on an existing Anglo-Saxon form, eȝe)

Peikko · Post by **Peikko** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:31 am

just a thought, could: "...and nayle hym to the scylde and lete hyme drye..." refer to affixing the leather to a form or last for the drying process?

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:01 am

Busy with the toddler right now, but I'll grab the reference: Nicolle quotes it in his article on the Coat of Plates.

Hardened leather armour 15th century English recipe

Hardened leather armour 15th century English recipe

Re: Hardened leather armour 15th century English recipe

Re: Hardened leather armour 15th century English recipe

Re: Hardened leather armour 15th century English recipe

Re: Hardened leather armour 15th century English recipe