Mail Shirts In The Holy Roman Empire During The 16th Century

[Mike R]

Lately I've been wondering whether or not mail shirts were worn in this time/place. I have heard that both Germany and Northern Italy were major centers of mail production and you commonly see mail mantles on landsknechts or as a component of plate armor but I have yet to see any artwork that shows mail shirts being worn as a primary defense. I have heard they were used in Ireland, Poland, France and they were definitely in use by the Spanish at least in the New World. So, how likely would it be to encounter someone wearing a mail shirt in the Holy Roman Empire during the 16th century?

[Destichado]

I have never, ever seen maille as a primary defense in any painting, etching or woodcut from this region and this period.

I won't rule out the possibility that someone could dig up a reference, but -likely? Thousands to one. Perhaps tens of thousands to one? As well as ask, how likely was it for a soldier in WWII to be shot dead by a flintlock? Again, I won't rule out the possibility, especially by the occupied resistance. But it would be far, FAR more believable for a soldier to go to war in his street clothes than in a coat of ancient maille.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

It doesn't get much more HRE than this!

[AvM]

On an armoured man, mail would have been worn at the unerarms and armpits, with (possible) occasional full sleeves.
http://livingelizabethan.weebly.com/sol ... ilors.html

There are pictures of Landsknechts wearing mail standards.

An unarmoured man would probably just have had a stiff or padded doublet, with possibly a breastplate, and a helmet.

[Ernst]

Lately I've been wondering whether or not mail shirts were worn in this time/place.... and they were definitely in use by the Spanish at least in the New World. So, how likely would it be to encounter someone wearing a mail shirt in the Holy Roman Empire during the 16th century?

You do realize that the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V was also the King of Castille, Carlos I? Spain was part of the Hapsburg Empire. The full list (up until the etc.), of territories is listed in the legal document, El Requerimiento.

http://usuarios.advance.com.ar/pfernand ... miento.htm

De parte del Emperador y Rey don Carlos, y doña Juana, su madre, Reyes de Castilla, de León, de Aragón, de las dos Sicilias, de Jerusalén, de Navarra, de Granada, de Toledo, de Valencia, de Galicia, de Mallorca, de Sevilla, de Cerdeña, de Córdoba, de Córcega, de Murcia, de Jaén, de los Algarves, de Algecira, de Gibraltar, de las islas de Canaria, de las Indias, islas y tierra firme del mar Océano, Condes de Barcelona, Señores de Vizcaya y de Molina, Duques de Atenas y Neopatria, Condes de Ruysellón y de Cerdeña, Marqueses de Oristán y de Gociano, Archiduque de Austria, Duques de Borgoña y de Bravante, Condes de Flandes y de Tirol, etc. Domadores de gentes bárbaras.

[Mike R]

You do realize that the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V was also the King of Castille, Carlos I? Spain was part of the Hapsburg Empire. The full list (up until the etc.), of territories is listed in the legal document, El Requerimiento.

Actually I didn't, thanks!

My interest is driven by my martial arts studies so I don't exactly have a character/persona I'm trying to portray but it's nice to know that it isn't completely impossible that someone trained in German longsword could be found wearing a hauberk and escaupil, a form of armor that's more suited to where I actually live than the half suit of plate armor that would be more typically German.

[AvM]

Actually I didn't, thanks!

My interest is driven by my martial arts studies so I don't exactly have a character/persona I'm trying to portray but it's nice to know that it isn't completely impossible that someone trained in German longsword could be found wearing a hauberk and escaupil, a form of armor that's more suited to where I actually live than the half suit of plate armor that would be more typically German.

You're confusing "government" with "location". A German would not necessarily dress like a Spaniard, even if they did nominally have the same Emperor/King at the time.

Note that Charles V was King of Spain, by virtue of holding both the crowns of Castile-León and Aragon, AND Holy Roman Emperor (he was also king of several other places: dude had REALLY well-connected family) - Spain was not part of the Holy Roman Empire. Emperors before Charles V and after him were not also King of Spain: the crown of Emperor (who was elected) went to Ferdinand and the that of Spain went to Phillip II.

A rough analogue: Someone from Hawaii wearing a hawaiian shirt, board shorts, and sandals looks very out-of-place in Maine, and someone from West Texas with a huge belt buckle, Stetson, boots and jeans, looks very odd in New York City.

[Mike R]

You're confusing "government" with "location". A German would not necessarily dress like a Spaniard, even if they did nominally have the same Emperor/King at the time.

I understand that but it does seem reasonable that a Spaniard might have trained with a German master or that a German soldier might have found his way into Spain or its colonies if they weren't political enemies and in fact shared a sovereign. Like I said I'm not trying to create a persona and I recognize a plate cuirass is more appropriate for a 16th century German context than a mail shirt is.

As far as Charles V goes he certainly did have an interesting life.

[Paladin74]

And an interesting malady, the Habsburg jaw as it were...brought on by the in-breeding of the Habsburgs. I say interesting because with such an enlarged lower jaw, chewing and eating in general were difficult for him. Add to that, he suffered from epilepsy and gout- the gout probably brought about due to his diet, which reportedly consisted primarily of red meat. A regular John Wayne, no? lol

[Destichado]

I'm sorry, I got a little confused by the painting of the Emperor in half-armor, but does any of this lead to the conclusion that maille shirts were worn as a primary defense in the Germanies in the 1500s?

By which I do not mean, a coat worn underneath other reasonably complete plate, as that would be a secondary defense, but a maille shirt itself, either worn crusader-style like Irish Kerns or Gallowglasses of the time, or under other clothes. I've never seen or heard of any such thing.

[AvM]

I think Destichado is right. I'd consider it extremely rare, if not unheard of.

It may be worth discussing - WHEN in the 16th C. are you thinking? There was quite a lot of change in fashion over those hundred years. Armour styles follow fashion, especially in the 15th and 16th Centuries.

[Ernst]

You're confusing "government" with "location". A German would not necessarily dress like a Spaniard, even if they did nominally have the same Emperor/King at the time.

I understand that but it does seem reasonable that a Spaniard might have trained with a German master or that a German soldier might have found his way into Spain or its colonies if they weren't political enemies and in fact shared a sovereign. Like I said I'm not trying to create a persona and I recognize a plate cuirass is more appropriate for a 16th century German context than a mail shirt is.

Further, German slashed and puffed fashions were worn in Spain, and German adventurers appear in the rolls of Hernando de Soto. Venezuela was a German colony too.

When Hernando de Soto called his first muster for the expedition to Florida, the Portuguese "Gentleman of Elvas" wrote:

He ordered a muster to be held, to which the Portuguese went armed with very splendid arms, and the Castilians very elegantly, in silk over silk, and many plaits and slashes. As such finery was not pleasing to the governor on such an occasion, he ordered a muster to be held on the next day and for every man to appear with his armor.

To this the Portuguese came as at first, armed with very excellent armor, and the governor set them in order near the standard borne by his alferez. Most of the Castilians wore poor and rusty coats of mail, and all [wore] helmets and carried worthless and poor lances.

http://www.floridahistory.com/elvas-1.html

[Ernst]

http://greatestbattles.iblogger.org/Ren ... knecht.htm

Any clues what the original source for this illustration might be? Appears to be a partisan-armed captain of the guard.

08_In_mail_shirt.gif (8.88 KiB) Viewed 382 times

There's also a Hans Sebald Beham woodcut of a zweihander-bearing fellow on the same site. I can't tell if it's a bishop's mantle over a mail shirt or not. The original woodcut might be more clear.

[Destichado]

[Baron Alcyoneus]

http://historyofwork.iisg.nl/detail_ima ... 1398&lang=



Jost Amman, c 1568

[Mike R]

That is interesting! I knew they were making and wearing mail in Germany at that time but this image shows two shirts hanging on the wall along with the more usual mantle. It looks like the man on the left is a customer, considering the way he's wearing his jacket and approaching the armorer... and it looks like he wants to buy a mail shirt! It's entirely possible that the shirts were mostly for export but it would appear there was at least some local interest.

Speaking of the "customer" it may just be a hat but it looks a lot like he's wearing a cabacete or some kind of morion.

[Thomas Powers]

Why? Perhaps the engraver just wanted something to fill that spot!

In De Re Metallica which was done in 1556 there are many engravings showing a dog in the background, same dog in scenes that took place in quite different locations!

I'd say it was a possibility that he represents a customer---or a guild buddy telling him it's time to go out for a drink!

[Mike R]

Sure, and maybe that's actually wool he's knitting and not mail at all. Perhaps the seated figure isn't even an armorer but in fact a burglar who was just finishing up tea and scones on the armorer's workbench when the local magistrate walked in and asked for a slice of moldy rye bread.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Occupation title source Panzermacher
Occupation title (english) Armor Worker
Hiscode 83990
Gender Male
Title of the image Panzermacher
Translation (English) Armor Worker
Language source German
Country source Germany
Artist's name Jost Amman
Artist's years and locations 1539-1591
Date of creation 1568
Medium Plate
Collection name Ständebuch
Provenance Jost Amman's Staende und handwerter mit versen von Hans Sachs. Frankfurt a/M 1568, Reprint Muenchen 1884



Here's a later version:



Ständebuch (Book of Trades) of Johann Christoph Weigel (1654-1725)
Regensburg, 1697-1699

I'm inclined to think that it is more of a copy of Amman's Ständebuch, but it has far more detail than his woodcut. He also has tools that you would need to produce the wire, that aren't in Amman's piece.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Speaking of the "customer" it may just be a hat but it looks a lot like he's wearing a cabacete or some kind of morion.

Military fashions often copied civilian fashions.

[Mike R]

I think Thomas was just trying to convey that it's hard to know for 100% certain what the artist intended to represent and my point was that we have to do the best we can with the available evidence. I thought my alternative explanation was pretty funny.

In all seriousness I'm very thankful you pointed out this piece of historical artwork, it's the best evidence I've seen so far. It would be nice to have more to go on but it's enough to strongly suggest they were manufacturing shirts in addition to other mail items.

[Destichado]

Well, I'm convinced.

Realize that this is still *vanishingly* rare. We have more examples of bargrills on bascinets than evidence of uncovered maille as a primary defense in this period/place. But, evidence you have. You would be portraying an anomaly, but you have enough evidence to make a very solid argument and convince most reasonable people.

Honestly, I'm still blown away by this.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

http://nobility.org/2011/11/28/jasna-gora/

Portrait of King John II Casimir in a chainmail, c1655?


The chainmail of King John II Casimir Vasa, located at the Polish Army Museum in Warsaw.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Madrid, c1500 or late 15thC






http://books.google.com/books?id=N-SQRc ... &q&f=false
Plate 17b&c

Plate 78 1547



Titian, John Frederick the Magnanimous, Elector of Saxony (1548)
Captured at the Battle of Muhlberg, 1547 (see plate 78)