Turners on 14th century arms?

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Buster
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Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by Buster »

I've noticed that on French armour from the later 14th century, the upper arm is often very segmented looking, and made of multiple plates.
(This seems to be an exclusively French design.)
I know there aren't any surviving examples of this style, but could these be turners of some sort, or do they seem more like something else?
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... 376/large/
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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by jarlragnar »

I have posted this very question here on the archive a year or so ago and got virtually (maybe literally) no response. I have had a theory surrounding this trend in French iconography: Could the lower arm assembly be something similar to the Churburg style arms (the kind with a small rerebrace in the back)? If so, might there be an upper arm/ spaulder assembly that the lower's rerebrace could fit inside? It would eliminate the need for a sliding rivet on the lame above the elbow. Any experienced armourers want to chime in?
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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by Buster »

I posted this effigy in another thread (it's older, and English, but I've seen similar French ones.) and I noticed it could be an arm with a short rerebrace fitted inside another upper arm segment.

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... 141/large/

Notice how the segment between the lames and upper rerebrace actually underlaps the hinge line, as if it rotates independently. I can't really think of a reason for that extra section, except it being some sort of turner.
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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by GvR »

I think there MAY be one other, possibly unsatisfying answer.
MANY effigies are commissioned by the family of the deceased
long after the worthy has passed away. It could be that the artist
is drawing/carving/engraving styles that are currently popular at that later date.
Just something to ponder.
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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by PartsAndTechnical »

Do a little hunting in the search section. There was a lively thread on this a while back.
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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by RandallMoffett »

I cannot see anything that makes me think this works like the turning systems I have worked with. That said the first French drawing to me looks like it has been drawn much later and is not completely right on.

The second one could be but it would not work well as it is laid out there with the massive hinge in the way. Since the Churburg arms really do not turn much I see no reason to think it was common.

Now maybe some one else will know more about it but I doubt it was done at this time in this way but who knows.

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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by James B. »

I don't see anything that looks like a turning system like 16th c armor either. I have an enclosed upper arm on my 15th century arm armor and it is no different than what I see in the second image other than the use of a hinge and buckles for the front and back where mine is one piece riveted at the seem.

The first image is a poor redrawing of an effigy and I would not trust any of the details in it to be correct.
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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by Mac »

I searched from 1375 to 1400 and came up with these. This sort of arrangement seems to be quite common in French grave art. I have only posted the ones that seem clear and relatively certain. There are others that might be the same arrangement, but it is less certain.

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... /original/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... /original/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... /original/
http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/fr00233a08a.jpg
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... /original/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... /original/
http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/fr00233a13a.jpg
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... /original/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... /original/

If I were called upon to reconstruct these arm harnys, I would make them in two parts. The vambrace would be like the ones from Churburg, with their short little upper cannons. These would be overlapped by hinged, closed cannons of the rerebraces. Rotation would occur at the place where these two pieces of armor overlap. I would not connect them together, but would leave them as two separate components.

This reconstruction takes advantage of the relative abundance of surviving vambraces with short upper cannons, and reconciles that with the rarity in which they appear in art. The hypothetical rerebrace is not supported by extant armor, but I think it is consistent with what the effigies are showing.

Thanks, as always, to Galfrid for making this sort of search possible.

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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by Jan van Nyenrode »

Hi Mac,

I have these and a few other bookmarked too. I came to the same idea as you. I am now working on building a set based on the french effigies. Can't wait to see how they work out.

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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by Mac »

Jan van Nyenrode wrote:Hi Mac,

I have these and a few other bookmarked too. I came to the same idea as you. I am now working on building a set based on the french effigies. Can't wait to see how they work out.

Cheers,

jan
Excellent, Jan! I look forward to seeing it.

mac
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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by Mac »

There are English examples of this sort of thing as well.

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... /original/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... /original/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... /original/

I only did a sort of half hearted search. I am sure that there are others.

Mac
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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by Buster »

Mac wrote:There are English examples of this sort of thing as well.

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... /original/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... /original/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... /original/

I only did a sort of half hearted search. I am sure that there are others.

Mac
Many effigies/brasses are highly stylized, but I notice artists consistently depict spaulder lames that wrap very far around.
This would obviously impede motion a great deal, unless the lower arm was able to rotate independently of the upper.
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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by James B. »

Buster wrote:Many effigies/brasses are highly stylized, but I notice artists consistently depict spaulder lames that wrap very far around.
This would obviously impede motion a great deal, unless the lower arm was able to rotate independently of the upper.
I don't beleive that is what they are depicting at all. They are showing the armor at a 3/4 angle because when wearing spaulders and you move your arm out and to the center the spaulder is facing forward not to the side. I find they have a natural tendency to ride forward when fighting because of the motion of your arms. I beleive that is the perspective being depicted.

It might be a false perspective but it is aesthetically pleasing.
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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

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RandallMoffett wrote:I cannot see anything that makes me think this works like the turning systems I have worked with. That said the first French drawing to me looks like it has been drawn much later and is not completely right on.

The second one could be but it would not work well as it is laid out there with the massive hinge in the way. Since the Churburg arms really do not turn much I see no reason to think it was common.

Now maybe some one else will know more about it but I doubt it was done at this time in this way but who knows.

RPM
With regards to the second effigy I posted, wouldn't the hinge being at the front of the arm still allow a turner to turn far enough? It seems like you'd be able to rotate the arm about 90 degrees inward before bumping into the hinge.
And if it is actually a short rerebrace fitted inside a separate, larger rerebrace/spaulder like Mac is theorizing, I imagine it would work even better.
(This setup would also distribute the weight of the arm on 2 points, so it's not all pulling at the shoulder point.)
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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by James B. »

Aren't most armor hinges flush on the inside and the roll is built to the outside? I don't see how that would impede movement.
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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by Jan van Nyenrode »

James,

The hinge still obtrudes from the rest of the innersurface. So placement of the hinges is relevant.

Cheers,

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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by Galleron »

Mac wrote:I searched from 1375 to 1400 and came up with these. This sort of arrangement seems to be quite common in French grave art. I have only posted the ones that seem clear and relatively certain. There are others that might be the same arrangement, but it is less certain.

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... /original/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... /original/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... /original/
http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/fr00233a08a.jpg
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... /original/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... /original/
http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/fr00233a13a.jpg
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... /original/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... /original/

If I were called upon to reconstruct these arm harnys, I would make them in two parts. The vambrace would be like the ones from Churburg, with their short little upper cannons. These would be overlapped by hinged, closed cannons of the rerebraces. Rotation would occur at the place where these two pieces of armor overlap. I would not connect them together, but would leave them as two separate components.

This reconstruction takes advantage of the relative abundance of surviving vambraces with short upper cannons, and reconciles that with the rarity in which they appear in art. The hypothetical rerebrace is not supported by extant armor, but I think it is consistent with what the effigies are showing.

Thanks, as always, to Galfrid for making this sort of search possible.

Mac
Another piece of evidence in support is French armor terminology in the 15th c., which regularly describes the pieces of the arm and shoulder armor as avantbras and gardebras. This makes sense if the overlap happens fairly low.
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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by Mac »

The hinge might present problems, and so might the opposite side of the cannon, where the closure is....but I don't see this as a "show stopper". This is the sort of stuff that needs to be reconstructed to see if it works.

Mac
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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by Mac »

PartsAndTechnical wrote:Do a little hunting in the search section. There was a lively thread on this a while back.
Drew,

I have not been able to find this. If you can find it, please post a link.

Mac
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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by Geoffrey the Younger »

I've noticed the tendency for what looks like separate vambraces from spaulder- rerebrace armour as well. Looks like it would solve the problem that integral arm harness have when you turn your arm -- and the spaulder digs in or inhibits movement.

See Du -Guesclin in St. Denis as well as the other effigy that is next to it. Both have that line that seems to indicate 2 seperate defenses.

See also this attachment -- seems to show this really well.
Attachments
Switzerland Basel Munster Heinrich Reich V Reichenstein 1403 311 copy.JPG
Switzerland Basel Munster Heinrich Reich V Reichenstein 1403 311 copy.JPG (47.84 KiB) Viewed 1317 times
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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by jarlragnar »

Image
arms by jarlragnar, on Flickr

I have been waiting to unveil these images of what I intend to create when I got a new camera. I sketched this in September, though and still haven't gotten anything nicer than an old cell phone.

I've spent a lot of time considering if these would work or not... Any opinions?
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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by Buster »

That looks like a good rendition of what these effigies seem to be showing, and would probably work quite well.
I'd never even considered the setup of a lower arm rotating inside a separate upper arm before this thread, but I agree that it seems more likely than connected turners.
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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by Graham Ashford »

This is a fascinating thread, I'd love to see a well made armour based off the drawing you've done jarlragnar, it seems to me a worthy solution of the effigy above. That being said though I haven't found integrated spaulders restrict movement if they are placed at the correct angle to the couter ... but that being said I was only having this conversation yesterday, it might be a nice solution (integration) but we weren't aware of any ever being found?

Personally and with little or no evidence to back this, I suspect all must have been tried? But the drawing and the effigy look very interesting to say the least, nice work/find!

Graham
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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by Len Parker »

On this one, it doesn't look like back plate goes under the rerebrace.http://www.themcs.org/armour/knights/Sw ... %20311.JPG Could that be a strip of leather that's pointed to the maille?

Also, did you notice the open wrist gauntlets that Mac posted
http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/fr00233a13a.jpg Pretty cool.
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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by RandallMoffett »

Jarl,

First thought, you draw very well!

I think your rendition is very likely what is going on in these effigies. I would like to know how it works having them separated like this.

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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

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Graham Ashford wrote:This is a fascinating thread, I'd love to see a well made armour based off the drawing you've done jarlragnar, it seems to me a worthy solution of the effigy above. That being said though I haven't found integrated spaulders restrict movement if they are placed at the correct angle to the couter ... but that being said I was only having this conversation yesterday, it might be a nice solution (integration) but we weren't aware of any ever being found?

Personally and with little or no evidence to back this, I suspect all must have been tried? But the drawing and the effigy look very interesting to say the least, nice work/find!

Graham
I'm sure both were used. The "integrated spaulder style" seems to have been more popular in England, while in France they seemed to prefer the style being discussed in this thread.
Of course, you can find examples of both in both places.
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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

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Len Parker wrote:On this one, it doesn't look like back plate goes under the rerebrace.http://www.themcs.org/armour/knights/Sw ... %20311.JPG Could that be a strip of leather that's pointed to the maille?

Also, did you notice the open wrist gauntlets that Mac posted
http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/fr00233a13a.jpg Pretty cool.
With that example, the rerebrace doesn't seem to come down as far as the others, so it might be showing the leather arming tab on the lower arm section.
(just a guess.)
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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by jarlragnar »

Buster wrote:
Len Parker wrote:On this one, it doesn't look like back plate goes under the rerebrace.http://www.themcs.org/armour/knights/Sw ... %20311.JPG Could that be a strip of leather that's pointed to the maille?

Also, did you notice the open wrist gauntlets that Mac posted
http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/fr00233a13a.jpg Pretty cool.
With that example, the rerebrace doesn't seem to come down as far as the others, so it might be showing the leather arming tab on the lower arm section.
(just a guess.)
I recently found a very clear sketch by Viollet Le Duc of what these arms look like.
Image
05-331 by jarlragnar, on Flickr

And by "these" I mean those in the Count of Eu's effigy, not the Swiss guy.
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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by Baron Alcyoneus »

RandallMoffett wrote:I cannot see anything that makes me think this works like the turning systems I have worked with. That said the first French drawing to me looks like it has been drawn much later and is not completely right on.

RPM
The source, according to the label at the top, is c1700. I think the drawing simply doesn't match the effigy well, and perhaps he was working from an incomplete effigy.
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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by Buster »

jarlragnar wrote:
Buster wrote:
Len Parker wrote:On this one, it doesn't look like back plate goes under the rerebrace.http://www.themcs.org/armour/knights/Sw ... %20311.JPG Could that be a strip of leather that's pointed to the maille?

Also, did you notice the open wrist gauntlets that Mac posted
http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/fr00233a13a.jpg Pretty cool.
With that example, the rerebrace doesn't seem to come down as far as the others, so it might be showing the leather arming tab on the lower arm section.
(just a guess.)
I recently found a very clear sketch by Viollet Le Duc of what these arms look like.
Image
05-331 by jarlragnar, on Flickr

And by "these" I mean those in the Count of Eu's effigy, not the Swiss guy.
Interesting sketch. Do you know what region that's from?
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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by Signo »

I bet France, Le Duc is disturbingly Francocentric, in his Encyclopedie Medievale, he often mix very good phrases to disgusting, false, pompous, delirations about "French uber alles".
There is a lot of material for good laughs in his book.
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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by Baron Alcyoneus »

Things got better in France after they got a Medici Queen. ;)
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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by jarlragnar »

http://www.flickr.com/photos/13973564@N07/2802441705
Here's another example, this time on a Flemish effigy.
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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by RandallMoffett »

Jarl,

I wonder how that'd work unless attached as it is not fully enclosed. Looks interesting and fairly datailed though.

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Re: Turners on 14th century arms?

Post by Buster »

RandallMoffett wrote:Jarl,

I wonder how that'd work unless attached as it is not fully enclosed. Looks interesting and fairly datailed though.

RPM
It actually is full enclosed, it's just a more open design than seen on many other effigies.
Look at this view of it, you can see the hinge line near the top.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilam ... otostream/

There's obviously a lot of variation in the design of the upper rerebrace, and how far it came down, but it looks like this style of arm was actually quite common across western Europe during the 14thC.
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