Can anyone shed some light on this "Splinted Coat of Plates"

[Russ Mitchell]

Painted panel boards purely, or painted-and-carved? The nature of medium would preclude any judgments at all on line, etcetera, if the latter.

[Ernst]

Other "board paintings" from Bjorsater seem to have no evidence of carving.
http://catview.historiska.se/catview/me ... hres/26193

[Dan Howard]

Thank you, KHtE.
One day, just by cosmic luck, I *swear* Dan and I are going to agree on something.

Where would the fun be in that?

[Dan Howard]

If I understand you correctly, Dan, you mean this type of armour? If that's the case, care to explain why you think it's mail-and-plate please?

The bottom image is Japanese but there are similar examples from Russia, India, and the Middle East.

[Dan Howard]

These plates are attached by lacing, not rivets. You can't tell anything just by looking at a few dots on a drawing.

[King Henry the Everlasting]

My translation from the most relevant part of http://www.lansstyrelsen.se/ostergotlan ... rkyrka.pdf

The Church Building.
The medieval church was situated approximately 4 meters south of the current church. It was built using wood with a rectangular longhouse and a smaller straight-lined chancel. It was probably built in the 13th century using the rod work technique. The church was richly internally decorated with paintings of high artistic quality, probably around 1325. When the wooden church was demolished in 1800, alot of the original material was used to build the new one. Painted wooden panels was found in 1910 thanks to the efforts of Andreas Lindbloms research in the church's wooden tower and the longhouse's tunnel vaults. These have at different periods been taken down and is now in the state's historical museum. The re-discovered wall paintings depict two different stories. One of them features motifs from the legend of the holy cross and have no equivalent in any other church in Sweden. The other is dedicated to the story of the english Archbishop St. Thomas Becket. Some painted panels were left above the chancel in the church. Parts of the floor are also parts of the original church.

[King Henry the Everlasting]

To be honest Dan, the japanese armour and the terracotta armour have also sprung in my mind. If only I could ask some swedish archeologist about armour findings from 14th century sweden. One thing is for sure, when it comes to armour in Sweden we had influences from both the east and the south, though the influence from the east seems to have diminished around the 15th/16th century.

[Ernst]

KHtE,
I'm sorry I wasn't more clear in the request. The sense of the online article was clear through electronic translation. Unfortunately, they don't help non-Swedish speakers with the century-old Lindbloms article in pdf which first publisized the Borsater painting.

http://fornvannen.se/pdf/1910talet/1911_067.pdf

Dan,
You've mentioned the bumps on the Terracotta Army figures being laces rather than rivets twice. On the one hand, I'm interested in the analysis which determined this, but on the other hand I really think comparing early 14th century Swedish depictions to ancient Chinese sculpture isn't likely to produce much realistic comparison. I do understand your view that the dots in Bjorsater represent something, but we can't be sure of exactly what.

[Dan Howard]

I was trying to show that illustrations by themselves can't tell us much of anything. Posting more illustrations still add up to "not much of anything".

[King Henry the Everlasting]

KHtE,
I'm sorry I wasn't more clear in the request. The sense of the online article was clear through electronic translation. Unfortunately, they don't help non-Swedish speakers with the century-old Lindbloms article in pdf which first publisized the Borsater painting.

http://fornvannen.se/pdf/1910talet/1911_067.pdf

Dan,
You've mentioned the bumps on the Terracotta Army figures being laces rather than rivets twice. On the one hand, I'm interested in the analysis which determined this, but on the other hand I really think comparing early 14th century Swedish depictions to ancient Chinese sculpture isn't likely to produce much realistic comparison. I do understand your view that the dots in Bjorsater represent something, but we can't be sure of exactly what.

Okay, I've read through the text now, reading 19th century and early 20th century swedish is a pain. It's really difficult to understand actually. I've read 15th century swedish court protocolls that are more easily understood.
But, on to the topic at hand: the armour. He spends very little time on the armour, he mostly compares the artwork and its quality and style with other similar pieces across the nordic countries and Europe. As for the armours, this is what I found.

1st. He describes the knights as "no helmet, only maille coifs"
2nd. He writes "The poorly detailed armours in Björsäter unfortunately does not allow for precise dating.

[Ernst]

I converted pdf to html, and got a rough electronic translation which I cleaned up. As far as the painting technique:

The paintings have been carried out with lime-color directly on the boards of fir or pine, which is not sawed or shelf-given, but only bilats (hewn?). The surface was first coated with an overthin layer of white paint, on which every curve plotted with black lines and facial features, wrinkles, etc. marked on the same manner. Then have the local color imposed, hvarvid (especially in case of red and brown), one modeled with darker tones obtained by re-pasting of the same color. Mopartial(?) ring of face and neck portions have generally out-brought food imposition (been given color?) of yellow and red. The background is constituted in the rule only by the white ground...Brown-red and green are the dominant colors. Also appear different shades of red, yellowand the blue-gray.

It seems very little can be drawn from the armor if it is white, as it appears to be in the black and white photographs.

[Dan Howard]

You've mentioned the bumps on the Terracotta Army figures being laces rather than rivets twice. On the one hand, I'm interested in the analysis which determined this.

Up close it is easy to tell they are laces. The level of detail is amazing. Mike Bishop made a reconstruction using lacing and the end result looks just like the terracotta figures. His reconstruction was confirmed later when lacquered leather/hide examples showed up in a Chinese tomb that dated only a few decades earlier. Incidentally, these leather armours are the earliest instance of true lamellar anywhere in the world.

[King Henry the Everlasting]

I converted pdf to html, and got a rough electronic translation which I cleaned up. As far as the painting technique:

The paintings have been carried out with lime-color directly on the boards of fir or pine, which is not sawed or shelf-given, but only bilats (hewn?). The surface was first coated with an overthin layer of white paint, on which every curve plotted with black lines and facial features, wrinkles, etc. marked on the same manner. Then have the local color imposed, hvarvid (especially in case of red and brown), one modeled with darker tones obtained by re-pasting of the same color. Mopartial(?) ring of face and neck portions have generally out-brought food imposition (been given color?) of yellow and red. The background is constituted in the rule only by the white ground...Brown-red and green are the dominant colors. Also appear different shades of red, yellowand the blue-gray.

It seems very little can be drawn from the armor if it is white, as it appears to be in the black and white photographs.

Yes, unfortunately, the colour has faded from the painting, due to water damages and general wear and tear.

You've mentioned the bumps on the Terracotta Army figures being laces rather than rivets twice. On the one hand, I'm interested in the analysis which determined this.

Up close it is easy to tell they are laces. The level of detail is amazing. Mike Bishop made a reconstruction using lacing and the end result looks just like the terracotta figures. His reconstruction was confirmed later when lacquered leather/hide examples showed up in a Chinese tomb that dated only a few decades earlier. Incidentally, these leather armours are the earliest instance of true lamellar anywhere in the world.

I'd love to see that reconstruction! Also, would most of these armours have been made of iron or leather? Or both?

[Ernst]

I wouldn't mind seeing the Chinese stuff either, but it is a serious derailing of the thread--even when the original poster requests it! Remember this back on page 1?

I could not say it was or wasn't laces over rivets. That said I am not sure how likely laced lamellar would be in this area at this time.

Hell, I'm not sure how I ended up on this side of the debate. I've never advocated lamellar in Western Europe either. My point is that the illustration is so simplistic that it could be interpreted half a dozen ways.

So do the Bjorsater "dots" represent lacing? Is there any real question that they're something other than nails/rivets, or do one of the 5 other ways to interpret them seem equally plausible? I know the "brick pattern" armor shown on this middle-man's chausses has been discussed before. Jazzerant construction perhaps, with stitching in the "brick pattern" and a central tuft?
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/romance ... ey-264/20/

[Dan Howard]

I'd love to see that reconstruction! Also, would most of these armours have been made of iron or leather? Or both?

Dr Bishop's paper is in Scribd somewhere but I can't find it atm.

Based on other similar finds I'd say that the majority of Qin armour was lacquered leather/rawhide and likely coloured black or red. The officers and charioteers may have had bronze lamellar. You don't see much iron armour until the Han period. Anything written by Albert Dien about this subject is worth reading.

[Dan Howard]

So do the Bjorsater "dots" represent lacing? Is there any real question that they're something other than nails/rivets, or do one of the 5 other ways to interpret them seem equally plausible?

Rivets aren't the only problem. I just used it an an example of why no drawing or sculpture, used in isolation, is particularly helpful.

I know the "brick pattern" armor shown on this middle-man's chausses has been discussed before. Jazzerant construction perhaps, with stitching in the "brick pattern" and a central tuft?

Jazerant is mail. It is the same construction, and the term is derived from, the kazaghand. That miniature is another example of why drawings can't be trusted. How do you get riveted plates to conform around the feet like that?

[Ernst]

Dan,
Since one drawing alone can't be trusted, we have to draw on other sources. For the 2nd quarter of the 14th century in Europe those sources indicate other possibilities for something being worn over mail:
1. A coat of plates
2. An aketon
3. A surcoat
4. Scale armor
5. Cloth covered mail--jazerants

Since the dots are not randomly placed, but appear in a pattern, are they are intended to mean:
1. Rivets
2. Additional stitching
3. decorative fabric
4. embossed domes
5. stitching to hold the mail in place

It seems probable to me that the intent at Borsater is a coat of plates/rivets, but the "brick pattern" appears in other contemporary sources. Since this "brick pattern" is shown on things like chausses and aventails--places traditionally covered by mail--it seems possible that this could be an attempt to show a jazerant (mail and padding between cloth). This would explain how the feet are covered, since no plates would be involved. Given the scale armor sculpture at nearby Linkoping Cathedral, it seems clear to me that the Bjorsater painting does not attempt to show scales. The short cut is not similar to surcoats of the period, and the need for additional stitching in an aketon seems dubious. I believe Dr. Dawson interprets this "brick pattern" in Byzantine sources as a padded armor. I think coat of plates or possibly jazerant. Lamellar is a non-starter in my opinion.

[Dan Howard]

Thanks for the clarification. Sounds reasonable.

[Ernst]

Recently posted concerning panzerhosen.
http://www.albrechts.se/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=29
http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... rhose.html

Same pattern, and a suggestion that these are small plates sewn into hosen, with the "dots" representing rust staining. Unfortunately, it seems the Munich panzerhosen were destroyed during the Second World War.
Can anyone confirm their destruction, or find a report describing their construction or confirming metal plates lining the hosen rather than mail?

[Buster]

Recently posted concerning panzerhosen.
http://www.albrechts.se/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=29
http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... rhose.html

Same pattern, and a suggestion that these are small plates sewn into hosen, with the "dots" representing rust staining. Unfortunately, it seems the Munich panzerhosen were destroyed during the Second World War.
Can anyone confirm their destruction, or find a report describing their construction or confirming metal plates lining the hosen rather than mail?

That reminds me, look at the lower legs of the figures in these images, and you can see some examples of the same vertical, rectangular plates.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/romance ... ey-264/20/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/romance ... ey-264/34/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/romance ... ey-264/36/
I should have thought to post these at the beginning of the thread!

[RandallMoffett]

Looks like padded pants to me. If they were metal plates one would assume it'd look more 'bulky' compared to the mail.

RPM

[Russ Mitchell]

Hard to see why padded pants would have rivets...

[RandallMoffett]

Where are you seeing rivets in the pants picture? I am just seeing heavy cloth of some nature, lots of thick cord and mail... and some rust nut it could be from it being used with iron armour.

RPM

[Russ Mitchell]

The middle of each of those rectangles, there's a light dot that looks to me like a rivet. It's washed-out, but there.
Edit: just rechecked, it's smudgy on the last one, but quite clear on the first one, so-so on the second.

[RandallMoffett]

Are you speaking about the photograph or the illustrations? I am looking at the photo. I agree the illustrations some look like rivets.

RPM

[Russ Mitchell]

No idea what the photo's showing. Would need a much closer examination.

[RandallMoffett]

? The panzerhosen photo is fairly clear. I have little doubt those are stitches.

[Russ Mitchell]

Definitely stitches...I"m not seeing enough detail to say whether it's padded pants, or just using more than one layer, or...