C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
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C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
Fifteenth century "bra and panties"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... s-ago.html
not sure if you'd seen this or not....apologies for the poor reporting, that's the Daily Fail for you....might be worth looking for the August issue of BBC History Magazine for better reporting....or indeed trying to find the original reports!
edited to add:
the BBC History article is indeed much better (what a surprise)...I can transcribe the relevant paragraph that describes the finds if you'd like, but not tonight as it's now 3 in the morning and bed calls...just shout if you want me to bother transcribing for you all
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... s-ago.html
not sure if you'd seen this or not....apologies for the poor reporting, that's the Daily Fail for you....might be worth looking for the August issue of BBC History Magazine for better reporting....or indeed trying to find the original reports!
edited to add:
the BBC History article is indeed much better (what a surprise)...I can transcribe the relevant paragraph that describes the finds if you'd like, but not tonight as it's now 3 in the morning and bed calls...just shout if you want me to bother transcribing for you all
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
Well, duh, of course we want it transcribed!
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
And passing it on, of course!
Vypadni z mého trávnÃk!
Does loyalty trump truth?
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Does loyalty trump truth?
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
Don't hassel the poor wee lamb he's got events to plan and collegues that just point and laugh <-
All things are subject to interpretation, whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power not truth.
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
Finally, actual photos of the garments! (Well, two of them, anyway.) I had the good fortune of seeing rough reconstructions of the bra-like garments last August at Pennsic War, where a woman from Maryland displayed them after having attended the initial conference where the data was revealed. I was allowed to take photos but was under strict instruction not to post them publicly, in order to preserve the original scholar's right to publish such things first.
There are two other bra styles as briefly mentioned in that article, and they're less like bras and more like the "shirts with bags" description. One is cut a lot like a modern halter top.
I find it fascinating to see the underwear style well matches the men's bikini-esque style of the late 15thc as well. Due to the width of the crotch area, I wonder if it's out of the realm of possibility that these are in fact men's briefs?
Looking forward to more as the data filters out!
There are two other bra styles as briefly mentioned in that article, and they're less like bras and more like the "shirts with bags" description. One is cut a lot like a modern halter top.
I find it fascinating to see the underwear style well matches the men's bikini-esque style of the late 15thc as well. Due to the width of the crotch area, I wonder if it's out of the realm of possibility that these are in fact men's briefs?
Looking forward to more as the data filters out!
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
=oþSir Digby Chicken-Caesar wrote:Don't hassel the poor wee lamb he's got events to plan and collegues that just point and laugh <-
easy Tiger!Well, duh, of course we want it transcribed!
it was 3 in the morning and I wasn't going to waste my time if I was going to be told that my bleary eyed search had missed the article already posted
The rest of the article discusses the finding of the objects themselves, the "briefs" that were found and discusses references to women wearing drawers/breeches in the C15-C16 period, though all of these only sketchily."Two of the 'bras' from Lengburg Castle seem to be 'shirts with bags'. Unfortunately they are fragmented with only one cup preserved each but appear to have had additional cloth above the cups to cover the cleavage, thus being a combination of a short shirt, ending right below the breasts, and a bra. The third 'bra' looks a lot more like a modern bra and is possibly what the German author [referred to earlier in the article] called a "tuttenseck" or "breastbags". It has two broad shoulder straps and the partially torn edge at the cups indicate a back strap. This 'bra' is elaborately decorated with needle-lace on the shoulder straps. All 'bags' are decorated at the lower end with finger-loop braided laces and needle-lace. The forth 'bra' can best be described with the modern term 'longline bra', a type of bra popular in the 1950's but still fashioned today. The cups are each made from two pieces of linnen sewn together an the surrounding fabric extends down to the bottom of the ribcage with a row of six eyelets on the side of the body for fastening with a lace. There are narrow shoulder straps, and needle-lace decorates the cleavage. Two of the bras have been radiocarbon-dated at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology, the dates ranging from the end of the 14th to the second half of the 15th century."
The briefs look similar to the skimpies found, often shown in black, in German art on men so it's not particularly cut and dried as to male/female as a garment. These bras and pants seem to have been the stand out items in a much larger haul of organic material. The article is written by Beatrix Nutz from the Institute of Archaeology, University of Innsbruck; she is writing her thesis on these finds so finding more details may need to wait until publication.
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
on the breifs,
http://www.uibk.ac.at/urgeschichte/mita ... c-2010.pdf
Beatrice Nutz will be speaking at the October MEDATs meeting giving all the latest info on these finds.
http://www.medats.org.uk/events/
http://www.uibk.ac.at/urgeschichte/mita ... c-2010.pdf
Beatrice Nutz will be speaking at the October MEDATs meeting giving all the latest info on these finds.
http://www.medats.org.uk/events/
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
Agreed Tasha, finally some photos. Yes those do look just like men's underwear. I don't suspect there was a huge difference.
Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
the BBC History article has an image of one of the others, looks like the "wide strapped" bra to me as it clearly shows the needle-lace decoration, but the item is fragmentary and not as well displayed as the one shown in the Daily Fail article
Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
Robert, can you repost the first link as it's broken...ta!
I'd forgotten about the medats topic for October...doh!
I'd forgotten about the medats topic for October...doh!
Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
Oh, 4, not 3 bras! More the merrier.
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
Is there any evidence to support the idea that the "brief" is in fact a woman's garment? Just finding it with some "bras" does not make it a piece of feminine clothing. My underpants are frequently "found" with my wife's bras......
It looks like 15th C men's underwear to me.
Mac
It looks like 15th C men's underwear to me.
Mac
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
I agree. I believe that the DNA analysis was "inconclusive", and since to a modern eye they look feminine...Mac wrote:Is there any evidence to support the idea that the "brief" is in fact a woman's garment? Just finding it with some "bras" does not make it a piece of feminine clothing. My underpants are frequently "found" with my wife's bras......
It looks like 15th C men's underwear to me.
Mac
Do you not know that in the service... one must always choose the lesser of two weevils?
Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
As I mention above, the crotch is excessively wide for the female anatomy. It would serve to create a convenient pouch for a male, however. Perhaps the argument could be made for making room for material that would assist in the containment of monthly bleeding, but without going into excessive detail, I believe most women would prefer something snug to the body for that purpose.
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
Agreed. They also look exactly like men's undies depicted in contemporary artwork. I suppose, though, that it's the most likely solution for what women might require *sometimes*, barring any other discoveries.
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
Tailoress wrote:As I mention above, the crotch is excessively wide for the female anatomy. It would serve to create a convenient pouch for a male, however. Perhaps the argument could be made for making room for material that would assist in the containment of monthly bleeding, but without going into excessive detail, I believe most women would prefer something snug to the body for that purpose.
Not to go completely off-topic, but do we have any extant information on how menstruation was handled? I would think that without some form of underwear, that would pose a problem.
Without evidence to the contrary, wouldn't it make sense that men and women wore similarly styled undies?
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
None that I'm aware of.
I think that if women want to try it out, they should, but they should always be honest that it is speculation only. I've been going back and forth on commenting on the article that they look just like men's skivvies of the period.
ETA: I should also note that there *are* a few images of women putting on undies. However, in the images I'm thinking of, they're being "mannish", that is, beating their husbands with distaffs, or sitting on their husbands' backs. To me, the artist specifically including putting on underwear as a signal that this woman is stepping out of her place is an argument against them being normal women's wear. YMMV...
I think that if women want to try it out, they should, but they should always be honest that it is speculation only. I've been going back and forth on commenting on the article that they look just like men's skivvies of the period.
ETA: I should also note that there *are* a few images of women putting on undies. However, in the images I'm thinking of, they're being "mannish", that is, beating their husbands with distaffs, or sitting on their husbands' backs. To me, the artist specifically including putting on underwear as a signal that this woman is stepping out of her place is an argument against them being normal women's wear. YMMV...
Last edited by Charlotte J on Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Do you not know that in the service... one must always choose the lesser of two weevils?
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
Charlotte J wrote:. I've been going back and forth on commenting on the article that they look just like men's skivvies of the period.
I certainly think that you should. It is an important observation that should be made for those that will find the article but not this thread. Hopefully the author of the original research is aware of the similarities and will address it in her thesis.
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
There are a few medieval women's health handbooks (most notably The Trotula), but it's also mentioned in other works on health at the time. There's some medieval English references collected at http://www.livinghistory.co.uk/forums/v ... 77d2eb996e as well.Gregoire de Lyon wrote:Not to go completely off-topic, but do we have any extant information on how menstruation was handled? I would think that without some form of underwear, that would pose a problem.
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
Good lord, there is a wealth of knowledge on this board! Thanks Karen!
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
Actually, I've been in touch with her personally, and she's aware of my hesitation, but I'm treading lightly. And since I want her to keep writing to me, I don't want to contradict her publicly. I suppose the Archive is public, but not like Daily Mail public.Gregoire de Lyon wrote:Charlotte J wrote:. I've been going back and forth on commenting on the article that they look just like men's skivvies of the period.
I certainly think that you should. It is an important observation that should be made for those that will find the article but not this thread. Hopefully the author of the original research is aware of the similarities and will address it in her thesis.
Do you not know that in the service... one must always choose the lesser of two weevils?
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
It sounds like she disagrees with you. That's too bad. I'd prefer to be aware of the concern and publish the ambiguity, then be in the permanent record with something that will later be disproved, or worse, openly mocked.Charlotte J wrote: Actually, I've been in touch with her personally, and she's aware of my hesitation, but I'm treading lightly. And since I want her to keep writing to me, I don't want to contradict her publicly. I suppose the Archive is public, but not like Daily Mail public.
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
I'm also not certain that it's her that's saying that they're "women's", or rather everybody who sees them. I believe it was her abstract that said "inconclusive".
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
Charlotte J wrote: I believe it was her abstract that said "inconclusive".
That's fair.
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
Somoene asked me to translate this article http://harpfe.weta.ws/wp-content/upload ... 0_Nutz.pdf and I thought I'd provide my translation here as well.
http://harpfe.weta.ws/wp-content/upload ... 0_Nutz.pdf
The German article is just on the bikini, not the bra. My translation of the German. From Harpfe Magazine, December 2010 (Note: the article just above this is about the general find at Lenberg)
Unmentionables:
This was an old term for underwear, especially underpants, because coming right out to say that would be immodest. But they have a long history. The Romans called them "subligar," and in the Middle Ages "brouche" (necessary), and they are generally referred to as clothing for men. Yet Roman art shows young women wearing them in bath scenes. In the Middle Ages, these had only been known from iconography, but now there is an archeological find from Tirol (a state in Austria) of a late medieval pair of underpants. The find was among a group of many other textiles, as well as leather, particularly shoes, and other organic remains, including a wooden flute, under a filled in vault in Lenberg castle in the community of Nikolsdorf in East Tirol in 2008.
The cut is a simple hourglass shape, somewhat wider in the “back” and with ties at the corners, like a modern thong (actually, although this word translates as thong, it is used to mean string bikini). It is made of linen and has three layers of fabric in the middle (my comment, one of which appears to be a patch). It could have belonged to either a man or a woman. A DNA analysis led by Master (as in, has a Masters ddegree) Dr. Walther Parson from the Institute of Forensic Medicine, Medical University of Innsbruck unfortunately did not reveal any additional information.
Due to the surrounding find grouping, as well as the architectural history of the castle, (showing building over this area) in the early 15th century, a 14th century date has been confirmed (note: this seems not to match with the next sentence). The pants were in use until after 1440 and were then used as fill in construction work at the castle as refuse was used to fill an vault. This is a common practice in the Middle Ages as an easy way to dispose of waste. Once a floor was built over the vault, as happened in this castle in 1485, the waste was “out of sight, out of mind.” Refuse was also used as insolation between floors.
The find of these underpants allows archeologists to know the exact construction style, the cut, the stitching techniques and materials, which allows for recognizing details not available from iconography. This promises new insights into underwear production in the 15th century. Finally, the pants can then be reproduced so that a medieval “wear feeling” can be fully modeled.
About the author: Master Beatrix Nutz is a research colleague (fellow) at the Institute of Archeology, department of pre and early history and medieval and early-modern archeology, in the work group for clothing and textile tecnhniques.
http://harpfe.weta.ws/wp-content/upload ... 0_Nutz.pdf
The German article is just on the bikini, not the bra. My translation of the German. From Harpfe Magazine, December 2010 (Note: the article just above this is about the general find at Lenberg)
Unmentionables:
This was an old term for underwear, especially underpants, because coming right out to say that would be immodest. But they have a long history. The Romans called them "subligar," and in the Middle Ages "brouche" (necessary), and they are generally referred to as clothing for men. Yet Roman art shows young women wearing them in bath scenes. In the Middle Ages, these had only been known from iconography, but now there is an archeological find from Tirol (a state in Austria) of a late medieval pair of underpants. The find was among a group of many other textiles, as well as leather, particularly shoes, and other organic remains, including a wooden flute, under a filled in vault in Lenberg castle in the community of Nikolsdorf in East Tirol in 2008.
The cut is a simple hourglass shape, somewhat wider in the “back” and with ties at the corners, like a modern thong (actually, although this word translates as thong, it is used to mean string bikini). It is made of linen and has three layers of fabric in the middle (my comment, one of which appears to be a patch). It could have belonged to either a man or a woman. A DNA analysis led by Master (as in, has a Masters ddegree) Dr. Walther Parson from the Institute of Forensic Medicine, Medical University of Innsbruck unfortunately did not reveal any additional information.
Due to the surrounding find grouping, as well as the architectural history of the castle, (showing building over this area) in the early 15th century, a 14th century date has been confirmed (note: this seems not to match with the next sentence). The pants were in use until after 1440 and were then used as fill in construction work at the castle as refuse was used to fill an vault. This is a common practice in the Middle Ages as an easy way to dispose of waste. Once a floor was built over the vault, as happened in this castle in 1485, the waste was “out of sight, out of mind.” Refuse was also used as insolation between floors.
The find of these underpants allows archeologists to know the exact construction style, the cut, the stitching techniques and materials, which allows for recognizing details not available from iconography. This promises new insights into underwear production in the 15th century. Finally, the pants can then be reproduced so that a medieval “wear feeling” can be fully modeled.
About the author: Master Beatrix Nutz is a research colleague (fellow) at the Institute of Archeology, department of pre and early history and medieval and early-modern archeology, in the work group for clothing and textile tecnhniques.
Last edited by Garick on Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
The latter reference is speciffically 'Phylis riding Aristotle", which was a popular medieval image, so it ain't his wife, it is a 'sweet young thing' making a fool of the older philosopher.Charlotte J wrote:None that I'm aware of.
I think that if women want to try it out, they should, but they should always be honest that it is speculation only. I've been going back and forth on commenting on the article that they look just like men's skivvies of the period.
ETA: I should also note that there *are* a few images of women putting on undies. However, in the images I'm thinking of, they're being "mannish", that is, beating their husbands with distaffs, or sitting on their husbands' backs. To me, the artist specifically including putting on underwear as a signal that this woman is stepping out of her place is an argument against them being normal women's wear. YMMV...
http://philobiblion.blogspot.com/2004/0 ... totle.html
The beating with the distaff image is usually the topsy-turvey depiction of the 'social order' ot the day.
I'm just happy at an extant example of the type of male underwear seen in typical Swiss images.
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
Having read the texts I can safely say its on the table but as I express in that thread that I've only come across one recipe that indicates some sort of regular use.Karen Larsdatter wrote:There are a few medieval women's health handbooks (most notably The Trotula), but it's also mentioned in other works on health at the time. There's some medieval English references collected at http://www.livinghistory.co.uk/forums/v ... 77d2eb996e as well.Gregoire de Lyon wrote:Not to go completely off-topic, but do we have any extant information on how menstruation was handled? I would think that without some form of underwear, that would pose a problem.
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
Actually, there's a handful of 15th century illos of women (for the most part, IIRC, saints who are about to be martyred in spectacularly nasty ways) wearing a white linen undergarment around their naughty bits. None of them are doing so in a "mannish" way, nor are these the transvestite saints (for example, I'd expect this out of Margaret/Pelagius, at far left in the cell in that image). The presence of fully-nude women in these same manuscripts precludes the possibility that it is just added out of a sense of morality or decency.Charlotte J wrote:ETA: I should also note that there *are* a few images of women putting on undies. However, in the images I'm thinking of, they're being "mannish", that is, beating their husbands with distaffs, or sitting on their husbands' backs. To me, the artist specifically including putting on underwear as a signal that this woman is stepping out of her place is an argument against them being normal women's wear. YMMV...
Lemme dig it up ... I thought I'd done a long posting on this on LJ ages ago, but can't remember now. It's far rarer than seeing women in a smock, of course, and that's more often how illustrators depict a woman who's just wearing her undergarments.
I'm going to guess ... BNF Fr. 50 & 51? That seems about right. I think that's where I saw some of 'em. (Before I proceed: Do not click on these links if you are going to get squicked out by images of torture, semi-nekkid medieval chicks, or nekkid medieval chicks, because that's pretty much all this block of links is going to be.) BNF Fr. 50 fols. 327v, 326v, 379, 381, and then BNF Fr 51 fols. 10, 11v, 15v, 71, 82v, 104, and 404.
I seem to recall at least two other manuscripts that show this sort of undergarment, but now that I am puzzling it over, I can't remember where they are, which is USEFUL AS USUAL.
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
I don't normally get squicked. Those are pretty darn squicky...Karen Larsdatter wrote:(Before I proceed: Do not click on these links if you are going to get squicked out by images of torture, semi-nekkid medieval chicks, or nekkid medieval chicks, because that's pretty much all this block of links is going to be.)
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
That's true. I've seen a couple of them more recently than the last time we all had this discussion here. A couple were obviously women, a couple were maybe women, maybe not. But I guess I'm trying to say that if in some cases, putting on undies was shown as a symbol for acting differently, then it points to it maybe not being normal. Know what I mean? Time and place varies, of course.
But this is the trouble with trying to pull this info off the top of my head when I haven't looked at it in a few years...
ETA: The undies I'm recalling seeing on women aren't that skirt-like garment that Karen showed...
But this is the trouble with trying to pull this info off the top of my head when I haven't looked at it in a few years...
ETA: The undies I'm recalling seeing on women aren't that skirt-like garment that Karen showed...
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
Agree'dGregoire de Lyon wrote:I don't normally get squicked. Those are pretty darn squicky...Karen Larsdatter wrote:(Before I proceed: Do not click on these links if you are going to get squicked out by images of torture, semi-nekkid medieval chicks, or nekkid medieval chicks, because that's pretty much all this block of links is going to be.)
I prefer kittens
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
That school/workshop/artists did quite a few manuscripts. In one of their City of Gods The Hague, MMW, 10 A 11Karen Larsdatter wrote: I seem to recall at least two other manuscripts that show this sort of undergarment, but now that I am puzzling it over, I can't remember where they are, which is USEFUL AS USUAL.
we see a man flagellating himself wearing one. 255v guy being flagellated wearing one 272v Woman wearing one kissing a guy in tighty whities 312v. women wearing them getting baptized, maybe just more a wrap like you see on Jesus 456v
And that is just the first volume.
- RandallMoffett
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
Charlotte,
I have seen MS with illustrations of women wearing underwear like this before but never seen any remaining ones. It sounds like all the clothing found was for women here as well, unless you discount the undies as for women.
Not sure it is tied to certain behavior, or that all women wore them at the time but then again has that changed.
RPM
I have seen MS with illustrations of women wearing underwear like this before but never seen any remaining ones. It sounds like all the clothing found was for women here as well, unless you discount the undies as for women.
Not sure it is tied to certain behavior, or that all women wore them at the time but then again has that changed.
RPM
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
There's a woman in her shift getting ready to climb into the fountain of youth in the Castello della Manta fresco who is wearing briefs, but they appear to be boxer style rather than stiring bikini style. The fresco is from the 1st quarter of the 15th c, about 50-75 years earlier than these finds.
T.
T.
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Re: C15 Bras from Lengburg castle
Tracy, that's the one I'm thinking of that I saw recently.
Randall, any that you could dig up to post?
Randall, any that you could dig up to post?
Do you not know that in the service... one must always choose the lesser of two weevils?