C15 Bras from Lengburg castle

[Tibbie Croser]

A few observations. It seems that a lot of historical clothing has been designed around the need for both sexes to be able to answer nature's call when away from privies or chamberpots. I had the impression that when women's underwear did widely develop in the 1700s or 1800s, it had a split crotch, and of course, men's underwear even today has a front opening. It would have been easier for women not to have had to pull something down around their ankles when squatting to relieve themselves in the fields or woods (I can speak from personal experience of primitive camping trips or parks with closed bathrooms). Regarding the menses, even up to the late 1970s, before adhesive sanitary pads were marketed, female sanitary pads were designed to attach to a belt and did not require underwear.

Regarding the "longline bra" that was pictured, could this have been the earliest form of the Renaissance corset? It has lacing holes on the side. I suppose there's no evidence of boning or sturdy fabric in the "bras"?

[Mac]

There's a woman in her shift getting ready to climb into the fountain of youth in the Castello della Manta fresco who is wearing briefs, but they appear to be boxer style rather than stiring bikini style. The fresco is from the 1st quarter of the 15th c, about 50-75 years earlier than these finds.

T.

I was all ready to say that I can not find her, but I looked again, and there she was! http://www.flickr.com/photos/12870414@N08/6212365550/ You have to look *through* the chemise!

Mac

[jester]

Has anyone considered that this might be bath-house babe attire? The lines and the tightness of the garment agree with several of the illustrations I've seen. Does anyone have a link to more contextual information on this find? I know other garment fragments were found and I'd like to know what kind and quantities and perhaps some more details on the specific location of the finds and what else was found with them.

[Baron Eirik]

Now you're just trolling for medieval porn

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Purely Historical Research only.

[Charlotte J]

Has anyone considered that this might be bath-house babe attire? The lines and the tightness of the garment agree with several of the illustrations I've seen. Does anyone have a link to more contextual information on this find? I know other garment fragments were found and I'd like to know what kind and quantities and perhaps some more details on the specific location of the finds and what else was found with them.

Which one? The bra?

I think that the "bras" found in Lengberg would give a silhouette very similar to the one I snapped while in Belgium:

[jester]

Yes, the bra. It looks very much like the tops some of the 'bath-house babes' are wearing.

[MJBlazek]

[quote="Charlotte J" I think that the "bras" found in Lengberg would give a silhouette very similar to the one I snapped while in Belgium:

quote]


Charlotte... running around in Belgium snapping bras! Tsk Tsk!

[Baron Eirik]

Belgium snapping bras!

Now there's a mental Polaroid

[Tailoress]

Yes, the bra. It looks very much like the tops some of the 'bath-house babes' are wearing.

I did have the thought that it was the top half of a fitted chemise (noting the side lacing) that got torn off, but didn't post it. It's kind of useless me saying so now, though, as it's awfully easy to say one had thought of something previously, with no proof.

[RandallMoffett]

Charlotte,

I am a bit overwhelmed at the moment with moving and some other things but I should be able to find them as I stuck them in my 15th century art folder. Remind me if I forget.

RPM

[Karen Larsdatter]

Just posted this to the Larsdatter.com Facebook page, reposting here:
http://medievalhistories.com/medieval-lingerie/
Several more photos, more information about the find, etc.

[jester]

Thank you, Karen. Now that I know the find contains playing cards I'm all sidetracked.

[Tailoress]

Thanks, Karen! That's a nifty blog/online magazine too, btw. I hadn't been aware of "Medieval Histories" before now.

[Garick]

The "bathhouse babe" outfits don't look like separate tops and skirts to me, they just have a really big and distinctive sash that visually separates the chemise.
http://gallowglass.org/jadwiga/pictures ... epers.html

[RandallMoffett]

Charlotte,

The only thing I have found so far is two women from Allegory Of Spring La Primavera by Sandro Botticelli has two women that are wearing underwear just like this but as earlier you need to look through the shift. There may be a third but her hand is too low. You can actually see the skin/flesh being pulled in by the thin side straps at the waist/hips. I have not had much time but I will hit my art books once they are unpacked.

RPM

[Tracy Justus]

...I had the impression that when women's underwear did widely develop in the 1700s or 1800s, it had a split crotch...

My belief is that this is why the can-can dance was so risqué. There's a pair of embroidered Italian drawers (17th c, IIRC) in the Met that has a split crotch.

T.

[Munz]

Isn't it rather in odd in the Castello della Manta fresco that all of the "naked" or disrobed men are wearing braes and the women are completely naked? And are we positive that the person in the long shift is a woman and not an older male? Quite possibly a clergy of some sort. That would explain a longer gown and the braes. Just saying...

[FrauHirsch1]

The "bathhouse babe" outfits don't look like separate tops and skirts to me, they just have a really big and distinctive sash that visually separates the chemise.
http://gallowglass.org/jadwiga/pictures ... epers.html

I agree.

[FrauHirsch1]

Isn't it rather in odd in the Castello della Manta fresco that all of the "naked" or disrobed men are wearing braes and the women are completely naked? And are we positive that the person in the long shift is a woman and not an older male? Quite possibly a clergy of some sort. That would explain a longer gown and the braes. Just saying...

There are two other women with the same hats, or are they women? They appear to be wearing women's clothing and in the process of getting nekid with another man...

[Tailoress]

Isn't it rather in odd in the Castello della Manta fresco that all of the "naked" or disrobed men are wearing braes and the women are completely naked? And are we positive that the person in the long shift is a woman and not an older male? Quite possibly a clergy of some sort. That would explain a longer gown and the braes. Just saying...

Until this thread, I always thought that figure was a man, but now I'm questioning it because it looks like s/he has breasts under that chemise too.... Mysterious.

[RandallMoffett]

I am fairly sure those are breasts and it is a woman.

Why could it not be the artist portraying them in different ways. I am sure men wore different underwear at the same time period just like hats and other clothing. I see not reason to assume this was different with women. Maybe some went commando, some in boxer like ones others in these ones.

RPM

[Charlotte J]

The "bathhouse babe" outfits don't look like separate tops and skirts to me, they just have a really big and distinctive sash that visually separates the chemise.
http://gallowglass.org/jadwiga/pictures ... epers.html

I do agree, in that they look like a garment with long lines. But then again, there are no seams really showing so it's tough to say. I've always thought they look like they're lifted and held in, rather than lifted and separated, but it's important to realize that it's not necessarily photo realistic.

But it does raise an important point. Without visual sources, we don't really know how a particular garment was worn. Maybe this wasn't "underwear" but bathhouse wear. Maybe it was something special. Maybe it was worn in conjunction with other support.

I suspect (and hope) that the A&S world will suddenly explode with people trying out reconstructions. That will be interesting!

[Charlotte J]

Until this thread, I always thought that figure was a man, but now I'm questioning it because it looks like s/he has breasts under that chemise too.... Mysterious.

Know what you mean. The first time somebody showed me that, I spent a good half hour trying to argue ways that it could still be a man...

[Charlotte J]

Also, I noticed in the thread on this over in OT that the yahoo article has a quote from Beatrix Nutz stating that she believes they are men's undies, not women's.

[MediumAevum]

Isn't it rather in odd in the Castello della Manta fresco that all of the "naked" or disrobed men are wearing braes and the women are completely naked? And are we positive that the person in the long shift is a woman and not an older male? Quite possibly a clergy of some sort. That would explain a longer gown and the braes. Just saying...

It is a woman but it falls into the category of the cuckold theme like almost every other image we have of women wearing underwear.

Also there is no reason to associate the objects together judging by the sheer amount of stuff found.

A preliminary overview tells of a cache of more than 200 coins, 160 coloured playing cards of carton belonging to more than four different stacks, objects of iron and alloys, bones, horn, glass, ceramics plus more than 50 pieces of writings from amongst other things accounts, chits and liturgical texts.

And then there are the textiles from the 15th century. Apart from more than 2700 fragments of woollen rocks, embroidered silks and linens plus buttons, pompons etc. the most spectacular findings were the linen underwear: bras, pleated shirts for children or young women, fragments of hats and linen headgear plus a piece of a (probably male linen) underwear complete with a fragment of a codpiece. Remarkably the linen pieces are in much better condition than the woollen fragments.

[MediumAevum]

Charlotte,

The only thing I have found so far is two women from Allegory Of Spring La Primavera by Sandro Botticelli has two women that are wearing underwear just like this but as earlier you need to look through the shift. There may be a third but her hand is too low. You can actually see the skin/flesh being pulled in by the thin side straps at the waist/hips. I have not had much time but I will hit my art books once they are unpacked.

I just looked at details of it in ARTstor and only one of them looks like she has something going on under there. She has something around her waist under the outerthin thing and then you see a line across her leg where the bottom edge of something. If I was to guess I would guess it is more like a slip but its indeterminate in the crotch area.

[Karen Larsdatter]

Until this thread, I always thought that figure was a man, but now I'm questioning it because it looks like s/he has breasts under that chemise too.... Mysterious.

Know what you mean. The first time somebody showed me that, I spent a good half hour trying to argue ways that it could still be a man...

I think it's supposed to be an old lady (just as the men who are in the act of disrobing are more clearly depicted as old men). There are a few women (who have not yet entered the bath, and thus have not reclaimed their youth) who are wearing a similar sort of headdress.

[Charlotte J]

Until this thread, I always thought that figure was a man, but now I'm questioning it because it looks like s/he has breasts under that chemise too.... Mysterious.

Know what you mean. The first time somebody showed me that, I spent a good half hour trying to argue ways that it could still be a man...

I think it's supposed to be an old lady (just as the men who are in the act of disrobing are more clearly depicted as old men). There are a few women (who have not yet entered the bath, and thus have not reclaimed their youth) who are wearing a similar sort of headdress.

Which of course throws a wrench into the whole "women wore undies for their period" idea.

[Charlotte J]

It is a woman but it falls into the category of the cuckold theme like almost every other image we have of women wearing underwear.

Also there is no reason to associate the objects together judging by the sheer amount of stuff found.

Can you clarify how this image fits the cuckold theme? Very interesting.

I cannot *wait* for the book or however they're going to share the rest of the finds. It makes me want to enroll to study there just to help out.

[MediumAevum]

It is a woman but it falls into the category of the cuckold theme like almost every other image we have of women wearing underwear.

Also there is no reason to associate the objects together judging by the sheer amount of stuff found.

Can you clarify how this image fits the cuckold theme? Very interesting.

Look at her for a minute and you'll see it.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12870414@N08/6212365550/

[jester]

It is a woman but it falls into the category of the cuckold theme like almost every other image we have of women wearing underwear.

Also there is no reason to associate the objects together judging by the sheer amount of stuff found.

Can you clarify how this image fits the cuckold theme? Very interesting.

Look at her for a minute and you'll see it.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12870414@N08/6212365550/

Maybe she will, but I haven't. I see the grasp on the cloak of the older gentleman, is that what you're referring to?

[Charlotte J]

I wouldn't have noticed it before, but yes, it appears that she's dragging him along.

[MediumAevum]

I keep wanting to say that I've been looking at the image for a decade, which I have and in the book I have it in the yellow stands out much more but I keep seeing with with an image of Aristotle being ridden which is not in that books so maybe the connection is from another book or maybe its just one of those strange connections brains make that computers fail horribly at.

ADD: Yea must have been another book because apparently they are connected.
http://www.socialhistoryofart.com/apps/ ... d=98552298
http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/a ... ories.html

[RandallMoffett]

[quote=]Which of course throws a wrench into the whole "women wore undies for their period" idea. [/quote]

Only if one assumes that all women had to wear them. I still am of the feeling that even if some women wore these not all did as we have evidence of women without them under their outerwear.

Unless we can find a clear trend I think all one can take is that some women wore them and others did not. I am not convinced this has to be special bathwear I think it is more likely it is one of the scenes where women are near naked, hence we can see the layers.

I'm going with occum's razor on this. Simplest might not have the best detail but has less gray areas.

RPM