Blackened Chainmail

[earnest carruthers]

"Because ferrous metals couldn't have been blued back then?"

Image analysis is tricky, unless you are the artist or know the motivations or conventions, images such as these have limited meaning and we must be careful not to cherry pick the bits that suit us.

Why would the artist be so keen to show a blue blade but not keep the mail links in pro, as it stands they would be huge?

These MSS are not photographic records of real life, even if they were they would still not reveal a huge amount.

As visual a person as I am, I would be relying on documentary and archaeological evidence first and foremost for artefacts, the visual record is somewhat lacking albeit beautiful.

[Marshal]

"Because ferrous metals couldn't have been blued back then?"

Image analysis is tricky, unless you are the artist or know the motivations or conventions, images such as these have limited meaning and we must be careful not to cherry pick the bits that suit us.

Why would the artist be so keen to show a blue blade but not keep the mail links in pro, as it stands they would be huge?

These MSS are not photographic records of real life, even if they were they would still not reveal a huge amount.

As visual a person as I am, I would be relying on documentary and archaeological evidence first and foremost for artefacts, the visual record is somewhat lacking albeit beautiful.

Actually, I was wondering why Dan thought that literary mention of 'blue swords' in a saga was reason for caution about crediting a 'white hauberk'.

If swords could be blued, then why could that not have been just an observation of reality?

[earnest carruthers]

"If swords could be blued, then why could that not have been just an observation of reality?"

Yep, as long as you use the same standard for the other elements in the image and that is difficult to do, frustrating it is too.

[Ernst]

Has anybody found this specific reference to painting or whitewashing Harald's "Emma"?

[Russ Mitchell]

I remember reading it (and being hella-amused that he named his mail shirt after what seems like obviously bawdy jokes), but don't have a precise quote, sadly...I left most of those books behind when I drifted eastwards in historical interest.

[Dan Howard]

Actually, I was wondering why Dan thought that literary mention of 'blue swords' in a saga was reason for caution about crediting a 'white hauberk'.

Ernst said that but I'm inclined to agree with him. Using illustrations for this kind of analysis is a waste of time.

[RandallMoffett]

The only thing that makes me wonder if there was blackened mail was the process of working metal. Even if the wire when drawn or spun round the mandrel was the only time it was hot they would be darkened. Having heated up metal many times the black layer can be a pretty good job on something that small to remove. Cleaning the links would add a second step that to me seems extra, even superfluous for armour. I wish we had some more clear texts on wire and mail construction as I wonder why they would clean millions of rings in a market that was already very labour intense for the lower end stuff. As well when writers make a big deal of bright mail I wonder if all mail was bright what the heck are the comparing it to?

RPM

[Marshal]

Actually, I was wondering why Dan thought that literary mention of 'blue swords' in a saga was reason for caution about crediting a 'white hauberk'.

Ernst said that but I'm inclined to agree with him. Using illustrations for this kind of analysis is a waste of time.

Right, sorry for the misattribution.

He wasn't talking about illustrations or paintings or images. He was talking about written descriptions. A written description doesn't contain numerous other elements as a picture may.

If a literary work says that a sword was 'blue', and the artisanship of the day could produce blued steel blades, I am still nonplussed at how it's somehow evidence that mail described as 'white' probably did not exist.

[Ernst]

To play devil's advocate, I suspect you'll have to look toward the late 15th century, When everything seems to be blackened or blued.
http://www.enluminures.culture.fr/Wave/ ... 7674-p.jpg

[Ariella]

I'm wandering in late here, but I did actually find a reference to black armour in Chrétien de Troyes' late twelfth-century romance Cligés.

The eponymous hero arrives in England and hears that there is to be a tournament near Oxford.

"He swiftly sent three of his squires to London and commanded them to buy three sets of unadorned arms, one black, another red and the third one green." (line 4600 ff in Foerster's 1888 edition)

This might refer just to shields with heraldic arms, but a few lines later, Chrétien makes it clear that he's talking about armour too.

"Cligès ... sat on Morel [a name for a black horse] dressed in armour more black than the biggest mulberry. His armour was completely black." (lines 4662-4665).

Of course, it's always a bit risky to take romances literally, since they were meant to be fantasy literature. But apparently some people in the twelfth century thought it would be cool to have black armour.

[Ernst]

That's a good find! Thanks for providing the links to the Old French original as well. Armor is most likely mail during Chretien's time, but we do find references to "hauberc jazerant" at times, which were mail covered in fabric, though I didn't see any mention here. Still a good reference to keep the door open.

[Dan Howard]

Does the word in question mean "armour" or the entire panoply? Wouldn't the colours in that instance describe only the items that usually display the arms of the knight - i.e. the shield and surcoat?

[Dan Howard]

Has anybody found this specific reference to painting or whitewashing Harald's "Emma"?

I have a feeling that the relevant saga is the Ljósvetninga Saga but I don't have access to an English translation.

Edit: yep. Here it is in Icelandic and Danish
http://sagadb.org/ljosvetninga_saga

The word "Emma" only appears once - in Chapter 31.

Konungur sjálfur átti brynju þá er Emma hét og tók hún á mitt bein og var svo sterk að aldrei festi vopn á. Brandur bauð konungi brynstakk sinn.

[Ernst]

Does the word in question mean "armour" or the entire panoply? Wouldn't the colours in that instance describe only the items that usually display the arms of the knight - i.e. the shield and surcoat?

Cligès is thought to date to aroun 1175, and arms is very generic, so could describe shields, helmets, armor, and/or a surcoat, though this is an early date for the latter.

L. 4603 Trois perire d'armes desparoilles
(Three pair of distinct (despareil) arms)
These are said to be black, vermillion, and green. However, now that I've had some sleep and have continued reading, I find the following in lines 4606-4607.
Comande que chascune peire
Soit coverte de toile nueve;
Commanding that each pair (set) be covered in new toile fabric. I strongly lean towards these being haubers jazerant.

Line 4663-5 use armeüre, which is armor for both man and horse, but could be jazerants, given the previous specification.

[Ariella]

Possibly, but the full sentence says that the sets of armour should be covered in new cloth so that no one on the road will recognize whose armour the squires are transporting. I think The poet just meant that the armour was wrapped up in cloth temporarily.

[Collin]

Just thought you guys should know that as a long-time lurker but new poster, this thread has been extremely helpful to me. My mild steel hauberk has gotten much brighter and shinier with use, and blackened maille would be absolutely awesome-- thanks for all the references and pictures! It's great that there seems to be no "yes it was/no it wasn't" but more a matter or drawing the best conclusions you can from the (sometimes limited) evidence presented.

[Ernst]

Possibly, but the full sentence says that the sets of armour should be covered in new cloth so that no one on the road will recognize whose armour the squires are transporting. I think The poet just meant that the armour was wrapped up in cloth temporarily.

It would be an expensive covering, as late 12th century toile would be block printed by hand.
Back in line 4945, Chretien specifically mentions the armor as a white hauberk (which doesn't leave us guessing) losing rings.
Les blans haubers et desmailliez

[Dan Howard]

Actually it does leave us guessing. The term "white" might be used to distinguish covered mail from uncovered mail - just like in the term "white harness", or to distinguish polished armour from unpolished armour, or it may simply mean that the armour's jazerant cover is white instead of a more common colour.

[Ernst]

But we do generally see such descriptions as 'haubers' or 'hauberc' distinguished from 'hauberc jazerant' in the chansons. Chretien's language in the case of the toile covered armor is not so specific.

Is there any evidence that "white harness" refers to covered plate rather than polished?

[Dan Howard]

But we do generally see such descriptions as 'haubers' or 'hauberc' distinguished from 'hauberc jazerant' in the chansons. Chretien's language in the case of the toile covered armor is not so specific.

It is a poem. Writers do all sorts of wierd things with the language to force it to fit the metre.

Is there any evidence that "white harness" refers to covered plate rather than polished?

Just the opposite. IMO a "white hauberk" is mail that is not covered with cloth, but it isn't the only possibility.

[Ernst]

http://books.google.com/books?id=-PNWLC ... ur&f=false

To further confuse the matter, the three colored armors are for a tournament in the plains before Oxford, near Wallingford. The century-later Tournament at Windsor Park has leather helmets and baleen swords, so these might be special tournament arms.