Was maille cleaned using sand and vinegar?

[Ernst]

bran
Noun: Pieces of grain husk separated from flour after milling.

Yes, bran from grain (Is there another kind?), likely rye or wheat. I'm sure bran is available in the baking section of your local grocer, though you'll probably want larger quantities at a lower price. Bran seems to be the universal scouring powder of the middle ages. Walnut shell is harder and more agressive.

[Thomas Powers]

Bran was one of the "common waste byproducts" of grain milling and so like tow---a common waste byproduct of flax preparation, lots of differing uses were devised to make use of a cheap and readily available resource

[Ernst]

In today's terminology, "upcycling".

[Ernst]

http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/3919/1/T ... _final.pdf

At least we get a glimpse of the time taken to keep mail clean, if not the specifics of he media.
William Rothwell, Keeper 1353-1360

No further mail was purchased during the period of Rothwell’s account, but
four mail makers (haubergiers), were paid 6d. per day to work on mending and
making mail in the Tower over 226 days at a cost of £22 12s. Four furbishers were
employed at the same rate for 105 days mending mail and other armour, and four
valets at 4d. per day for 203 days trundling barrels in order to clean the mail.

Henry Snaith’s account of 1362, Tower Armoury

No new mail was purchased, but there are interesting records of its
maintenance and modification. For the cleaning of the mail, wages were paid to four
workmen each at 6d. per day for forty-five days rolling barrels with various mail
armour.(127) Twenty-six mail shirts of various sorts were written off for enlargement
and repair of others, including the jazerant also recorded in the account of William
Rothwell.(128)

[Mac]

....four valets at 4d. per day for 203 days trundling barrels in order to clean the mail.

.....for forty-five days rolling barrels with various mail
armour.

I would like to know what the original document says here. I feel sure that if the barrels were indeed turned by human power, that they were at least mounted on bearings, and not rolled up and down the road.

Mac

[Sean M]

....four valets at 4d. per day for 203 days trundling barrels in order to clean the mail.

.....for forty-five days rolling barrels with various mail
armour.

I would like to know what the original document says here. I feel sure that if the barrels were indeed turned by human power, that they were at least mounted on bearings, and not rolled up and down the road.

Mac

The Latin of one of those passages is in a footnote: "iiij valletorum quolibet eorum ad vj d per diem per xlv dies vertentas barellos cum diversis harnesis de maile." In English, "Four valets, each of them at 6d per day through 45 days turning barrels with assorted harness of mail." I can't find the other passage in Latin.

The verb vertere means something like "to turn, rotate, whirl" but I don't know how much can be made of it. They all knew how you rolled mail :bangs head on desk:

I wonder how they picked which four valets would spend the next six months rolling mail :evil grin: Fourpence a day wasn't a bad wage, but not princely either.

[CTrumbore]

Hmm.. one of the definitions of "trundle" is to "push on small rollers".

A barrel, on two rollers.. with a crank handle.

[Ernst]

One of the reasons barrels are shaped the way they are is because it's an easy way to move heavy loads around by hand and foot--far easier than a heavy box. Need to turn left, put a little downward pressure on that side. A 20-35 pound hauberk doesn't take up a lot of space: Think shoebox size. A 42 gallon barrel could easily hold hundreds of pounds of mail and bran. If they had meant a rundlet, you'd think they would have said so.

[Sean M]

One of the reasons barrels are shaped the way they are is because it's an easy way to move heavy loads around by hand and foot--far easier than a heavy box. Need to turn left, put a little downward pressure on that side. A 20-35 pound hauberk doesn't take up a lot of space: Think shoebox size. A 42 gallon barrel could easily hold hundreds of pounds of mail and bran. If they had meant a rundlet, you'd think they would have said so.

And medieval people often didn't use simple machines like cranks where we would expect them to. The closest thing to a "cranked barrel" which I can think of is a 19th century butter churn, but I thought those were post-medieval. Can anyone think of a medieval example?

I'm an ancient historian, so cranks are weird science-fiction devices to me

[CTrumbore]

One of the reasons barrels are shaped the way they are is because it's an easy way to move heavy loads around by hand and foot--far easier than a heavy box. Need to turn left, put a little downward pressure on that side. A 20-35 pound hauberk doesn't take up a lot of space: Think shoebox size. A 42 gallon barrel could easily hold hundreds of pounds of mail and bran. If they had meant a rundlet, you'd think they would have said so.

And medieval people often didn't use simple machines like cranks where we would expect them to. The closest thing to a "cranked barrel" which I can think of is a 19th century butter churn, but I thought those were post-medieval. Can anyone think of a medieval example?

I'm an ancient historian, so cranks are weird science-fiction devices to me

We know they knew about rollers though. That's my I'm thinking instead of pushing them up or down roads, or around the courtyard, a frame with two rollers in it that a barrel (or drum) could rotate on (think rock tumbler).

[Mac]

I have trouble imagining a people who use wind power to grind their corn hiring a guy to shove a barrel around all day.

Maybe I am over thinking this....

Mac

[CTrumbore]

I have trouble imagining a people who use wind power to grind their corn hiring a guy to shove a barrel around all day.

Maybe I am over thinking this....

Mac

Where was the wind power, and where was the armour?

[Ernst]

I don't see why you'd have to roll the barrel around the room or down the road. That Gawain and the Green Knight reference uses rokked. My washing machine doesn't agitate by going round and round in a circle, but by going back and forth. Two guys rolling the barrel between them for 1/8 revolutions. Rocking.

Boþe his paunce and his platez, piked ful clene,
Þe ryngez rokked of þe roust of his riche bruny;

[Mac]

We are talking about the middle of the 14th C., by which time many of the major cities of Europe have had mechanical clocks in their Cathedrals for over fifty years.

But, as I said, perhaps I am over thinking it. Perhaps it is is not worth the expense of hiring a millwright to build something to roll a barrel when you can hire a couple of bully-boys to shove it back and forth for a penny a day.

Mac

[Dan Howard]

If the barrel in question was being rocked/rolled by mechanical means then what were the four men doing?

[Ernst]

That ain't workin', that's the way you do it
Money for nothin' and your chicks for free

[Sean M]

I don't see why you'd have to roll the barrel around the room or down the road. That Gawain and the Green Knight reference uses rokked. My washing machine doesn't agitate by going round and round in a circle, but by going back and forth. Two guys rolling the barrel between them for 1/8 revolutions. Rocking.

Boþe his paunce and his platez, piked ful clene,
Þe ryngez rokked of þe roust of his riche bruny;

Ernst, when you put it that way I am pretty sure that was how they usually did it. No special equipment, just a barrel and some bran or leather scraps. Maybe some households with a big collection of armour had special polishing barrels, but so far I don't know of any evidence.

[Ernst]

You already noted the barrel for rolling, pro rollandis, and I'm sure ffoulkes documents barrels specific to the pupose in a couple of castle inventories. I guess they were rocking and rolling!

[CTrumbore]

If the barrel in question was being rocked/rolled by mechanical means then what were the four men doing?

A sign at a place I used to work (making automation for the printing industry) said "The print plant of the future will have two employees. A dog and a man. The man will feed the dog, the dog will keep the man from messing with the machines".

[Steve S.]

Has anyone tried just tumbling maille on its own?

Yes. I've tumbled a lot of maille, and it is highly self-abrasive. You can get a very good cleaning just by tumbling the maille by itself.

I find it hard to imagine pushing a barrel around on the ground as a polishing machine. It would be hard on the barrel and harder work on the worker.

It would be simple to make a couple of shafts with wheels on them and place the barrel on the wheels and then just use your hands to spin the barrel. Just a simple set of axles to allow the barrel to be spun in place.

Steve

[Jasper]

labour and squires are cheap. And the barrells could be old barrels head for trashpile.

[Cap'n Atli]

I've read of sawdust being used and experimented with it in a tumbler with a sample. It seemed to work slowly, but gently. I would suppose that hardwood sawdust would be better than pine; but it was a while back. (Hmmm, maybe it's time to repeat the experiment with better controls.)

[Ernst]

I suspect the turpentine in pine shavings would be better for the mail than the tannins in oak shavings.

[Ernst]

I did some rough calculations from Richardson's thesis. Using the 1353 mail inventory he listed, and given 4 men 203 days for cleaning (roughly a 4 day work week for 52 weeks), it seems the 4 men would have to thoroughly clean about 4 items per day (counting a pair of mail sleeves as 2 items, but a pair of paunces as 1) to do everything once annually. So, 2 men would have to clean a hauberk, haubergeon, or mail shirt, while the other two would be cleaning a pair of sleeves and pizane--effectively the issued equipment for a man. If things needed cleaning more frequently than annually, the work load multipies accordingly. If everything in the inventory needed to be cleaned quarterly, there would be 4 times as much work, and using arms to turn barrels would likely give way to using legs. Of course there are also mail trappers which I didn't include in my calculations. This leads me to think it likely that the ach barrel might contain 2 full sets of equipment per day to be tumbled: 2 hauberks, 2 pizanes, a pair of mail sleeves and a pair of paunces. Add media like bran to the weight, plus the weight of an oak barrel, and we might be looking at 150-200 pounds to be rocked or rolled for several hours per day.

[Dan Howard]

I've had a bag of links that were bright orange from surface rust that I was weaving into a mail shirt. By the time I had completed 2 or 3 rows, the movement of the shirt in my lap had abraded those links shiny clean (my hands and jeans were orange instead).

[earnest carruthers]

IIRC Pastons have an inventory item a barrel for scouring mail. John Fastolf section. Does not mention any scouring agent.

[Sean M]

Previously I was very skeptical that people in the fourteenth century would have used anything more complicated than a barrel, some abrasive, and a patch of smooth ground to polish mail. Therefore I should say that I have found one piece of evidence that some sort of suspension frame was in fact used. Francesco di Marco Datini employed one Hennequin de Bruges at Avignon to work maille, and in 1367 he took an inventory of Hennequin's shop. The Italian text of this inventory has never been published, but there is a French summary (Robert Brun, "Notes Sur le Commerce des armes à Avignon au XIVe siècle," Bibliothèque de l'école des chartes (1951) tome 109 livraison 2 p. 211).

L'inventaire signale dans la botique une enclume de fer, une caisse de bois cotennant les outils nécessaires et une tonneau muni de son chevalet pour fourbir la maille.

"The inventory mentions in the shop one anvil of iron, one chest of wood containing the necessary implements, and one barrel furnished with its little horse for scouring the maille."

If we see the “little horse” as something like a sawhorse or the frame of a battering ram, then that could be the sort of cranked barrel which some people have suggested.

Edit: the inventories of the dukes of Burgundy use chevalez = gun carriage, DeVries, K., "A 1445 Reference to Shipboard Artillery," Technology and Culture, vol. 31 no. 4 (1990), pp. 818–829

Edit 2024-01-01:

Teach the young recruits the proper uſe of their arms, when off duty— as, to make a horſe to hang their wet cloaths upon with the firelocks— with the bayonet to carry their ammunition, loaves, toaſt cheeſe and pork, and ſtir the fire : it might otherwiſe contract ruſt for want of uſe.

Anon (Francis Grose?), Advice to the officers of the British Army. New Impression (London: R. Richardson, 1783) pp. 108, 109 https://archive.org/details/bim_eightee ... -fas_1783/

[RandallMoffett]

Sean,

There is not a Duke of Lancaster in the 13th century. It is first created by Ed III for his friend Henry Grosmont, the Earl of Lancaster. It was 1351. I think we are pretty safe with the term Earl here.

Will,

Fantastic experiment. I will have to try some of them sometime. Will have to wait for one of those nice HF coupons for the mixer.

RPM

[Sean M]

Sigh ... you can tell that I'm not a trained medievalist can't you! You are right: the inventory of Dover Castle with the barrel for rolling armour is dated 20 December, 17th year of Edward III (our 1344), and begins by mentioning Willhelmus de Clyntone comes Huntyndone who seems to be William de Clinton, Earl of Huntington.

The University of York has now digitized that volume.

Edit: Here is the other citation, from The Archaeological Journal xviiij (1862) p. 163 “The leathern sacks mentioned in the roll of Ministers' Accounts, 23 and 24 Edw. I (Duchy of Lanc.) were possibly for a like purpose. The entry is as follows- 'in xx. s. xj. d. in duobus saccis de coreo pro armatura Comitis.'”

[RandallMoffett]

Sean,

That is ok. Seemed there was some question on comitis and its meaning.

Neat they have all these online now.

I should point out when I said first created above I meant in relation to Duke of Lancaster. Prince Edward was made Duke of Cornwall in 1337. First medieval Duke, though you have some roman dux/duces up there far earlier.

RPM

[Sean M]

Yes, I was confused.

Digitizing sources is very important. Not everyone interested in armour has convenient access to a library with back issues of the right journals.

[Baron Conal]

Even if they did not do it.... does it work?

[Mark Griffin]

For what its worth, I've had a good bit of success tumbling mail in cement mixers with nothing but themselves. Excellent for removing rust, basically a more mechanical form of wearing it and moving about. It does dull them down a bit so its a very matt black rather than the slightly more shiny look modern repro stuff has. I've never found the need for adding sand and on the odd occasion I've tried I've never got rid of all the sand.

When taking delivery of new mail from India I usually tumble with hardwood chippings to remove the icky grease they love on things.

I have original shirt sections here that i can only describe as bright/white steel. They were bought at auction and have no idea what cleaning methods were used on them but the are remarkably bright and shiny, no black on them at all.

[Glen K]

...and one barrel furnished with its little horse for scouring the maille.

??



or



or

[Ernst]

Butter churns?