Is lacing armor legitimate?

[Gordy]

If I were to build an end of the 14/beginning of the 15th century kit, would splinted leather legs that were laced instead of strapped be legitimate? If I considered a different time period would that be okay?

[Galfrid atte grene]

Take a look at these. My guess is that they are leather, possibly with internal splints or pressed ridges. Certainly laced shut (note, there are also similar greaves shown with buckles in an Italian fresco dating to 1350).


BL Latin 757, f. 76r, Italy, 1385-1390

[Sean M]

Is that just an enlarged version of the Gallica high-resolution images? I noticed that bit myself, but your version looks too crisp and detailed to be the same images I saw.

[Galfrid atte grene]

Yes. I just magnified it a bit to focus on the detail requested.

[Russ Mitchell]

Gordy, when it comes to sharps, I actually trust laced stuff WAY more than I trust buckles. I've had laced armor cut in two places and nicked in a third, and had it hold up just fine. Cut a buckle strap, and that sucker's coming open. No bearing on transitions in practice, but thought I'd throw it out there.

[Ernst]

Galfrid and I were just having a private chat over the resolution from Gallica vs. the Mandragore images.

[Galfrid atte grene]

Here is another Italian example

Abbazia di Viboldone, Italy, fresco 1350-1370

[Ernst]

Some examples in a previous thread on this topic from Eff-
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=86587

[Effingham]

Some examples in a previous thread on this topic from Eff-
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=86587

Yay, I get a call-back.

[Ceawlin]

I've recently seen several 16th century historical armors (The Met in Philly, a display in Burg Eltz, Germany) that rivet leather along the edges, and lace greaves closed. There are also English effigies of the mid-to-later 14th century that show lacing inside/between the legs of completely enclosed cuisses.

I'll try to post a couple iffy cell phone pics when my daughter gets off of the computer I have the photos on.

Also, I'm having problems with effigiesandbrasses.com, so I'll try to bring up the effigy link later, too.

[Ceawlin]

Warning: crappy cell phone pics of authentic armor

Here are the photos of a tournament? armor suit that was on display in Burg Eltz, Germany, when I visited there in 2008.
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/c ... rg%20Eltz/

Here's the picture that clearly shows the leather tabs and holes for lacing, meant to close up the greaves.
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/c ... G_1290.JPG

After looking through my photos from the Philadelphia Metropolitan Museum of Art, I apparently didn't take any pics of their display armor that used lacing on the greaves. I do remember seeing it last month though.

Effigiesandbrasses.com is still down, or not responding, or something.

[Ernst]

Galfrid had mentioned moving the sites to a new hosting service. Manuscript Miniatures and the Aquamanile site are also down.

[Effingham]

Good photos Ceawlin. Dang, that's a thick helm.

[Mac]

Here are the photos of a tournament? armor suit that was on display in Burg Eltz, Germany, when I visited there in 2008.
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/c ... rg%20Eltz/

Creawlin,

Thanks for those pics. The good folks at Burg Eltz have some pretty unconventional ideas about how an armor goes together, don't they? It is not everyday you get to see something like this.

Mac

[Mac]

Here's the picture that clearly shows the leather tabs and holes for lacing, meant to close up the greaves.
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/c ... G_1290.JPG

I am not at all sure I believe that this is the original closure of these greaves. If you look at the hinge side, you will see that the hinges have been remounted to accommodate a larger leg....or perhaps just a larger manikin.

Mac

[Signo]

I agree that this closure appear to be more modern that the greaves, because the riveting of the leather in place has deformed the whole brass strip. But I've seen several other cases of greaves closed with laces, some of those in Vienna, I'm quite sure.
Years ago there have been effigies discussed on this forum that showed traces of lacing between the legs.

[Gordy]

Thanks for the replies, sorry I didn't get back sooner. So if I was going to have splinted greaves and cuisses, should I just take brass tubing, punch holes in the leather, stick the tubing through, and peen it? That would make a pretty sturdy base for lacing I think.

[bairdec]

I lace my cuisses, and I have no problems with them. I have had good results with just a double thickness of leather along the edge and no other reinforcement. Lacing the cuisses from top to bottom works much better than bottom to top; if the knot at the bottom comes loose, the lacing tends to stay put.

[James B.]

After reading this thread and the linked thread I have noticed a bunch of mid 14th artwork shows laced greaves. Interesting.

[RScivias]

http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSearchZ ... 6NU0BYSEJY
and
http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSearchZ ... 6NU0CACTVM

my 2cts for your research.
Regards.

[Gustovic]

Wait. What?
Enclosed internal elbows in the early 15th century? Now that's surprising.

[Mac]

Wow! I have never seen that one. Thank you, RScivias!



There are a couple of images which show this sort of construction from the early 15thC. but I did not know of any surviving examples.

[RScivias]

Yes Mac, this arouses the curiosity and makes me want to plan a visit to the musée des Invalides if it is on display.
Regards.

[James B.]

Stumbled on this today. ca. 1360-1380 - 'Drakenborch tomb, maybe Frederik van Drakenborch (schout (bailiff) of Utrecht in 1350) or Werner (bailiff from 1364 to 1377)', Utrecht, Centraal Museum, Utrecht, province of Utrecht, Netherlands:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/1624424022/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/1623533387/

[Bertus Brokamp]

With regard to the Drakenborch effigy, a.o. the right leg below the knee and the lower part of the left leg have been reconstructed in plaster at the end of the 19th c.
I suppose that means that the upper part of the left leg is original and must have shown lacing as a closure, for the artist to have applied this in his reconstruction.