Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Body

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Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Body

Post by Sean M »

"What, if anything, did a late 14th century soldier put on his chest before the haubergeon or plates?"

This thread is the second in a series of threads on arming garments in the late 14th century (for the first, see I: Caps and for a later one see III: The Legs). In the next year or so I will start to put together clothing to go under a Lombard harness of roughly the 1380s, so I need to answer some questions about arming garments to my own satisfaction.

As with the other thread, I would like to focus on evidence not opinions or experience. There are many threads on this forum where experienced and well-read people give their opinions, but few systematic discussions of the evidence. For example, few refer to good commentaries on the 15th century arming texts, or cite the ones which are not in English. Maybe these threads will even cause some well-established opinions to shift!

I have a few things already. What evidence do you know about? What places might be good to look? I will continue to edit this post to add evidence as people provide it.

Key Questions
How padded were arming garments for the upper body? One might guess that as plate became more complete, padding was reduced, but I don't know of much evidence either way, and people who have worn many different armours and arming garments have different preferences.

How was the arm and leg harness held in place? Plate cuisses and an articulated vambrace-elbow-rerebrace unit need to be suspended from something higher on the body, but it is rarely possible to see how this was done. See the effigy of Kunz Haberkorn (Blair p. 211) for an early example. For the reference of those who may come to this thread in future years, here is the “pointing plate to maille” thread (link) and the “lacing armour” thread (Link).

What were the period terms for garments worn under white harness? I suspect that all of gambeson, aketon, pourpoint, and doublet were used in England alone.

What are good editions of and commentaries of all the 15th century arming texts? The English of “how a man shall be armed” and "a treatise of worship in arms" is online but good commentaries are hard to find, especially for texts in languages other than English.

Visual Sources
See the next post!

Textual Sources
There are several of these, but all too early or too late. Nevertheless, the references are useful, especially to ones in languages other than English!

Anonymous formulary (Guyenne, 13th or 14th century, written in French) published as "Formalités des duels et combats judiciares en Guyenne dans les XIIIe or XIIIIe siècles," Bulletin trimestriel de la société de Borda Dax (Landes) (1914) Premier Trimestre pp. 73-87 link. I thank Ariella Elema of Toronto for the link and RScivas for help with vocabulary. This intriguing document lists various pieces of kit and clothing which participants in a judicial duel could be required to wear. For this thread, the most important ones are Combaisson (p. 82: gambeson), Pourpoint (p. 82: A quilted garment for the upper body), Perpunt et platas garnit (p. 83: a pourpoint and “plates” that is a pair of plates/coat of plates/brigandine), Aycotas armeas (p. 83: "cotte d'armes" ie. outer garment displaying the wearer's heraldry). It mentions other light garments but not, so far as I have noticed, a shirt.

Modus Armandi Milites (English, circa 1320s, written in Latin): This short text lists what a man-at-arms should wear for a tournament, for war, and for a joust. Unfortunately, the second two sections are very brief, and the whole document is written concisely in a mix of Latin, French, and English. Moffat's translation goes: „First light a fire and roll out the carpet and strip to the shirt. Brush back the hair. On the feet [place] boots of leather. Arm the shins with greaves (in French mustylers) of steel or cuir bouilli. Thence quysouns on the thighs and genicularia (in French genulers). Thence aketon and thence a shirt of Chartres and a coif of Chartres, and a basin in which there ought to be a cerveylere to defend the head lest the basin come in contact with the head. Thence hauberk, cuirass, coat armour upon which will be the knights’ blazon, and gaignepains or gauntlets of baleen, his espeye that is sword, and flail, and helm that is heaume.” (Arms & Armour Vol. 7 No. 1 [2010] pp. 5-29). Note that this knight has a shirt upon him, and that his quilted cuisses are not attached to the aketon.

Great Wardrobe Accounts of Edward III (England and France): Because the vast majority of the cost of clothing was the cloth, thread, and notions, accounts give detailed information about what was needed for particular garments. For some aketons and doublets in 1343/4 see appendix V of Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince or the thread Doublets and Aketons in 1343/4.

Various, Norwich Rolls of Arms (English, circa 1340s-1360s): These list men who appeared at musters and the equipment that they presented. Some rolls just describe the equipment of an "armed man" or "fully-armed man" once, others list variations. Roll A (1355) has doublets and plates, roll B (before 1370) has pourpoints and plates, roll C (1340s-1360s) has haketoun and plates, roll E (one of the years 1359/60, 1361/2, or 1365/6) has purpont and plates, roll F (on back of roll E) has pourpoint and plates or aketon and haubergeon (homines proxime infra armati sund cum purpoys & platee vel Alketoun & haub'ionem bacinetto cum auentaill cerotecis de plat' gladio & cutell'), and roll H (Easter 1359) lists 9 "dublets" and 21 "plates alias pairs of plates" but no other padded garments among other arms. So an aketon, pourpoint, or doublet could be worn underneath a pair of plates, but in Norfolk at this time "pourpoint" was the most popular name.

See W. Hudson, "Norwich Militia in the Fourteenth Century," Nrf. Archaeol. 14 (1901) pp. 263-321 Link

Anonymous, Middle-Dutch account entry of 1361-62: "Item tot eenen paer kousen sine yseren lappen op te nayen ende op te wapenen 4&½ quartier ghemenghets 18 s." (Translation Bertus Brocamp: "For a pair of hosen to sew and arm his iron patches on, 4&½ quarters of mixed (colourwise) cloth [cost] 18 s.")

Anonymous, Limburger Chronik (west German, late 14th century) published as Deutsche Chroniken (Hannover, 1883) Vol. 4/1 page 39/chapter 28: "Item die underwamse hatten enge armen unde in dem gewerbe waren si benehet unde behaft mit stucken von panzern, daz nante man musisen." (Tr. Bertus Brocamp "The underdoublets had narrow arms and in the articulations they were besewn and fitted with pieces of haubergeons, these were called 'mus'irons.")

Geoffrey Chaucer, The Tale of Sir Topas lines 858-868 (English, written roughly 1386-1400, written in English): Chaucer tells a silly story about a Flemmish knight preparing to fight a giant. The story is a parody of knightly romances, but the element of parody is subtle. The list of clothing seems plausible. It is surprising to see "hauberk = pair of plates" here, but it helps make the rhyme. For a complete text of the poem, see this link.
Geoffrey Chaucer wrote:He dide next his white leere (He put on next to his clear, white skin)
Of cloth of lake, fyn and cleere, (of delicate, clean linen cloth)
A breech, and eke a sherte (Underwear, and also a shirt)
And nexte his sherte an aketoun, (And next to his shirt an aketon)
And over that an haubergeoun
For percynge of his herte; (for piercing of his heart)
And over that a fyn hawberk (and over that a fine hauberk)
Was all ywrought of Jewes werk, (was completely wrought of Jewish work)
Ful strong it was of plate; (It was very strong and made of plate)
and over that his cote-armour,
as whit as is a lilye flour, (as white as a lily flower is)
In which he wol debate. (in which he wanted to fight)
Unknown, Chronique de Bertrand du Guescelin Ffoulkes p. 86 (1383): I know nothing about this source.
Chronique de Bertrand du Guescelin wrote:Ainsoins l'ala d'une lance tranchant
L'escu li a rompu et le bon jaserant
Mais l'auqueton fu fort qui fu de bougerain
...
Et prendre auquetons de soie ou de bougerains
In this passage a lance passes through a shield (escu) and a jaserant (cloth-covered maille?) but is stopped by an aketon of buckram (bougerain). Maureen F. Mazzaoui understands buckram as a cloth containing cotton, but its meaning in France may have been different from its original Arabic and Italian meaning. The audience is told to take or wear aketons of silk (soie) or buckram. (Thanks to Mark Shier for this reference).

Anonymous, Chronicle of the Good Duke (written circa 1430 and describing the deeds of arms at Vannes in 1381) chapter XLV: Two knights prepared to do arms, and because one of them had a sore on his leg they agreed to wear no leg harness and not strike the legs. As one would expect in a story, on the third blow the sick man impaled his companion's thigh with a lance.
The Chronicle of the Good Duke wrote:And then the duke of Brittany and the earl of Buckingham who had seen this impropriety had the Englishman Messire Guillaume taken, and disarmed to his little pourpoint and went to have him hurled in prison and they said to le Barrois cousin german of Chastelmorand: "Go to Chastelmorand and tell him that we are very unhappy and indeed infuriated that this knight has failed to do what he had promised and we are delivering him to Chastelmorand to be his prisoner, to put him to such ransom as pleases him and between you his friends if Chastelmorand dies you can do what you like to that knight.
Source (tr. Steve Muhlberger)

John Lydgate, Troy Book, 3.44-46 (London, begun 1412, finished 1420):
John Lydgate wrote:And some of hem gan ful streite lace (And some of them began to very tightly lace)
Her doubbettis made of lyne cloth, (their doublets made of linen cloth)
A certeyn fold þat a-boute hem goth; (a sure fold which goes about them)
Text courtesy of Armour in Texts.

John Lydgate, Troy Book 3.52-57 (London, begun 1412, finished 1420):
John Lydgate wrote:And some þere were eke þat nolde faille (And there were some who did not want to forget)
To han of maille eke a peire bras, (To have a set of armharness of mail,)
And þer-with-al, as þe custom was, (and in addition to that, as was customary,)
A peir gussetis on a petycote, (a set of gussets on a petticoat,)
Garnyssched with gold vp on-to the þrote. (decorated with gold upon it as far as the throat.)

Passage found in the Middle English Dictionary, text quoted from Armour in Texts.

Johan Hill, Treatise of Worship in Arms (English, 1434, written in English: available in ffoulkes appendix C): I am too tired to comment on this strange text. It recommends wearing two specially made garments under harness for a judicial duel. The oyletts seem to be “eyelettes.” For further commentary see this thread. Link

Traite du Costume Militaier, 1446 (French, 1446): Can someone with better French than I tell us if it says anything relevant? Link

How a Man Shall be Armed (English, circa 1450, written in English): Texts are very easy to find online eg. here. The knight should strip naked above the waist and wear a doublet of fustian lined with satin cut full of holes, strongly built and with points set about the bend of the arm, to which maille gussets can be laced. What is the best edition and commentary? ffoulkes has one on page 107, and Daniel Jacquet 2016 says that there are comments in G. A. Lester ed., Sir John Paston’s « Grete Boke »: A Descriptive Catalogue, with an Introduction, of British Library MS Lansdowne 285. London: D.S. Brewer. pp. 84-85.

Sir John Smythe, Certen instruct[ions, obseruati]ons and orders militarie (England; Published 1594, written sometime after 1588 and revised after 1590): Sir John took it for granted that the fustian used to cover arming doublets was "woolie" ie. napped and brushed. He seemed to think that this was superior to smooth cloth. See this thread for the text. Text courtesy of Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership.

Published Opinions
ffoulkes, The Armourer and His Craft (1912) pp. 12, 76, 83-88, 104-108: As usual, this book has many good things, but is not as helpful as one could hope. On page 106 he agrees with Blaz and Charlotte about why the pourpoint is so called! The most relevant passage other than primary sources and art is: “The gambeson continued in use up to the seventeenth century under the name of 'arming-doublet', with but little change except in shape and form, as the style of armour required. Of the undergarments of the early fifteenth century we have little or nothing to guide us, and we are often at a loss to know even what armour was worn under the tight-fitting, small-waisted jupon or surcoat which distinguishes the end of the fourteenth and the beginning of the fifteenth century.” Now available on the Internet Archive at https://archive.org/details/armourerhiscraft00ffouuoft

Blair, European Armour (1958) p. 75: Blair is as laconic as usual. “The aketon remained in use throughout the whole period [from 1330-1410]. As far as one can judge from the little evidence available it varied little, if at all, from the forms described in the first chapter, except that from the middle of the 14th century it seems often to have had a strongly marked waist. Its length, of course, changed with that of the haubergeon.” On the other hand, on pages 77 and 78 he says that the arming-doublet is a 15th century name for the aketon, and cites a quilted example in the collection of C. Otto von Kienbusch! (The current owner now dates that doublet 1550-1650 Link). See also pages 33, 46.

Singman and McLean, Daily Life in Chaucer's England First Edition (1995) p. 141: “The military doublet was essentially a sturdier version of the civilian doublet or coathardie of this period; it was made of a heavy linen or cotton fabric, often fustian, a blend of the two. The doublet helped absorb sweat, and it was padded to provide extra comfort and protection from chafing and impact. It was fitted with lacing holes at the legs and arms for attaching armour. Military doublets commonly laced up the front, giving a tightly trussed fit over the abdomen that helped distribute the weight of the leg harness.” He picked the Charles de Bois doublet as a model for his arming doublet sketch.

Practical Considerations
Heavy padding is less useful under plate than maille, and can be hot and bulky. A typical Italian tapered vambrace, for example, does not appear to have much room under it for padding.
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by Sean M »

Visual Sources
Arming scenes in art of this period are rare. Many are stylized pictures of pilgrims who wear 13th century kit (see the French Pèlerinage works of Guillaume de Deguileville, which mention specific equipment as part of an allegory). These cannot be used as evidence for the details of contemporary dress.

Maciejowski Bible (Paris, circa 1250): This is probably the standard visual source for garments worn over and under maille in the 13th century. Unfortunately, its a hundred years too early! Link

"Von dem passione Jhesu Christi," Jacobus de Voragine, Legenda sanctorum aurea, verdeutscht in elsässischer Mundart BSM-HSS Cgm 6 (Alsace, completed in 1362): A soldier sleeping at Jesus' sepulchre has a bare head with a bascinet and aventail at his side. No coif or cap is visible. He wears a quilted upper garment with maille visible at the neck, a plaque belt, and iron plate legharness. Link

Image

"Capture of Don Pedro," La chanson de Bertrand du Guesclin Yates Thompson 35 (Paris, 1380-1392) folio 246r: A sleeping soldier wears a white cloth coif, doublet, and hosen. Are these arming garments? Link and Link.

Queste del saint Graal BNF Français 343 (Milan, early 1380s): The “naked knight” scene on folio 32r shows a shirt, braes, aketon, and coat-armour but no cap. Then again, it shows no hosen! Link

Image

Roman de Giron le Courtoise BNF Nouvelle Acquisition Francais 5243 (Milan, late 14th century): This Arthurian romance has several interesting pictures. Unfortunately, it appears pale in the scans. Folio 14v shows another rerebrace strapped to the upper arm over the sleeves of the haubergeon. Folio 25r shows a man wearing a doublet and vambraces being beseeched by a lady. The doublet looks like the ones worn by gentlemen elsewhere in the manuscript, but few details are clear. Folio 26r shows a disarming scene with the wrong things visible. Link (25r beseeching) and Link (26r disarming)

Image

Missale et Horae ad Usum Fratrum Minorum BNF Latin 757 (Milan, late 1380s): Good examples of latten or hardened leather armour strapped over maille on pages 72v and 76r. How the articulated vambrace-elbow units are attached is not clear. Link and Link

Wenzel Bible ONB Cod. Vindobonensis 2762 (Germany, 1389): On folio 55r, a king pulls on his haubergeon, having already dressed in a doublet or aketon over iron leg harness. The doublet has extensive horizontal stitching, especially on the belly, but a flat rather than globulose chest. Link to Manuscript Miniatures

Wenzel Bible ONB Cod. Vindobonensis 2762 (Germany, 1389): On folio 58, one of the pedites is engaged in the useful and practical task of stripping the dead. Both he and his victim wear red garments with lots of quilting below the waist under their haubergeons. He also wears a bascinet and iron legharness. (I would be very appreciative if someone could show me an edition which lets one see which part of the Old Testament each picture is associated with!)

Image

Wenzel Bible ONB Cod. Vindobonensis 2762 (Germany, 1389): On folio 49v, a series of prisoners are led in chains. Some are dressed in red garments similar to the aforementioned arming garments. Are they soldiers who have been stripped of their armour? Link to Manuscript Miniatures

Pèlerinage de Jésus-Christ BIF MS.09 (Paris, 1400): This allegorical series shows a woman arming a clerk. Rather than pick our just one (because I don't know what is going on here, and the clerical and military garments are hard to tell apart) I have tagged the relevant ones with the “arming” tag. I suspect that this allegory would make more sense if we had the original text! Link.

Anonymous tr., Livre des Nobles Femmes BNF Francais 589 (Paris, before February 1403): Folio 103v has an arming scene. A gentleman in a white doublet laced to mi-parti hosen is kneeling and starting to pull on a hauberk. A bascinet with aventail, haubergeon, iron gauntlets, and iron greaves rest in front of him. I am a bit suspicious of the date, because some elements of the fashion feel later than 1403, but they say that it was given to the Duc Jean du Berry in February 1404. Link.

Image

Anonymous Bolognese master, drawing of knights in a rocky landscape, Museum of Fine Arts, Budapest, inventory number 1778: I think Blaz Berlec found this, he says it dates 1435-1445 but their catalogue now says circa 1400 and has the whole image and not just an excerpt. The doublet has laces in the upper sleeve and seems to have a drawstring purse dangling from the opening in the breast.

Image

"Romans surrender their arms to the Samnites", BNF Français 264 folio 229v (thanks Karen Larsdatter for the identification) (Paris, beginning of the fifteenth century): The Romans wear white quilted garments with enlarged chests as they hand over their mail. Link
Image

Unknown, De Cas des Nobles Hommes et Femmes Genève, Bibliothèque de Genève = BNG Ms. Fr. 190/1 (Paris, 1410): Folio 104v shows Artaxerxes killing Artabanus as he takes off his lorica. Link to original on e-codices and Link to Manuscript Miniatures.

Image

Unknown, Histories of Noble Men and Women BNF Arsenal 5193 (Paris, 1412) Link: Folio 111v shows Artaxerxes killing Artabanus as he takes off his lorica.

Image

Unknown, BNF Francais 226 (Paris, 1400-1425) folio 79: Another version of Artaxerxes killing Artabanus. https://manuscriptminiatures.com/4274/8815

Unknown, Roman de Tristan, Österreichische Nationalbibliothek number unknown (French c. 1410): Unknown folio shows gauntlets of iron, a bascinet with visor and aventail, a shield, and a shirt abandoned by a fountain. Link

"David quittant son armure," BNF Francais 3 Bible Historiale fol. 266v (Paris, 1400-1425): Upper left has a knight putting on or removing his haubergeon. The BNF identifies him as David.

Image

Giovanno di ser Niccolo de Castadis, "Wounded Agesilaus," Manuscript Ottobanium Latinum 1417 (Italy, 1460) folio 22: See this thread.
Image

Giovanni Battini, "An Army Breaking Camp," Bodleian Library MS. Canin Class. Lat. 81 (Italy, circa 1460) folio 49v http://bodley30.bodley.ox.ac.uk:8180/luna/servlet/view/all/what/MS.+Canon.+Class.+Lat.+81 (blurry colour) and B&W

For later art see Blaz Berlec's thread here

(Some pictures have no direct link because of file-size restrictions- Sean)
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by Ernst »

Pèlerinage de Jésus-Christ BIF MS.09 (Paris, 1400): This allegorical series shows a woman arming a clerk. Rather than pick our just one (because I don't know what is going on here, and the clerical and military garments are hard to tell apart) I have tagged the relevant ones with the “arming” tag. I suspect that this allegory would make more sense if we had the original text!
There are various editions of Guillaume de Deguileville's "Pilgrimage" works. Pèlerinage de la vie humaine is available for free download on Nook, and the 1426 English translation by John Lydgate is available on goodreads.com.
http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/16 ... _Guillaume
The allegorical figure is "Grace", "the Grace of God", etc. arming the "Pilgrim", man on his journey through life, for the temptations and travails he will face. He is later followed by "Memory" carrying his armor.

There are other examples with earlier dates which I have tagged at manuscriptminatures.com under the tag "Pèlerinage".
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/ ... Pèlerinage"
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by Sean M »

Thanks Ernst. It looks like I need to read Lydgate's translation, or at least the relevant bits (six hundred pages of allegory?) It appears that most illuminators took the author literally. On page 213 of that edition Grace of God gives the pilgrim a helm, gorget, target, gloves of plate, and a sword to go with his allegorical pourpoint and haubergeon. Humanity the Pilgrim leaves off his leg armour; until I can read 14th century French I think I will be in suspense whether Jesus does.
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by Kel Rekuta »

Great work so far Sean!

Please note the lady that mentioned the BNF ms is Ariella Elema, who successfully defended her doctoral thesis on judicial duels just this summer.
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by PartsAndTechnical »

I suspect in a number of these images we are not seeing foundation arming cottes in the sense they support armour. And that may be a critical differentiation to point out. I think we are seeing a number of 'fine overcoats' if you will. With either some sort of mail, COP defense or early cuirass underneath. That we seem to see fairly nice textiles and a curious absence of external armour seems to suggest either these cottes are simply a fancy solution to wearing over armour.... I recall distinctly the Peel Affinity quote that referred to the arming cotte "much besmirched" with grime from the mail coat

A couple of pics appear to be arming cottes. However Im not yet convinced buttons are the solution to a tight girdle affect that is ideal to support the leg harness. In my experience nothing beats lacing for a secure hold. Although its possible a leg harness vest/belt pourpoint apparatus may exist underneath.

Great pics though!
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by RandallMoffett »

P and T,

Not from the ones posted here. Most of them have over coats in the same picture. The first one maybe but the others I do not thing so.

As far as buttons vs. lacing. If you do it right you can get the same exact fit regardless.

RPM
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by Sean M »

I fixed the spelling of Ariella's name. I keep making slips like that!

I agree that the doublet in the Legenda sanctorum aurea probably goes over body armour, but its such an interesting garment that I have included it. I can just see some kind of maille at the neck. I think that the Queste del saint Graal pourpoint is definitely meant to go under armour, and has buttons on the belly. We can see the garment ("coat armour"?) that went over the knight's armour at the side. On the other hand, the Wenzel Bible does not show any opening on its pourpoints. Have a look at the king arming himself )(one of the images that the forum software insists is too large to include with an img tag).

The only evidence that I have seen for an "arming vest" is Johann Hall's text from 1434, but I would welcome other evidence.
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by PartsAndTechnical »

RandallMoffett wrote:P and T,

Not from the ones posted here. Most of them have over coats in the same picture. The first one maybe but the others I do not thing so.

As far as buttons vs. lacing. If you do it right you can get the same exact fit regardless.

RPM

Sean,

I lost the context of your reply: "not from the ones posted here"

Do you really think buttons achieve the stability for supporting a leg harness? I guess what I was driving at was a breakdown of logic from the images above, and moreover a question of what we mean by the term arming garments.

a] Do we mean some form of gamboised protection....maybe with a nice outer layer?
b] Do we mean some sort of arming foundation (I often use the phrase "arming cotte", though I could be mistake).
c] Are we presumed to theorize that the leg harness may indeed not be attached

If these were arming foundations they are all mysteriously missing their breastplates or COPs or body defenses. It makes as much sense that we are seeing a surcoat or outer coat with buttons rather than assuming these are arming foundations. Also we seem to be missing lacing points on the shoulders/upper arms. As exciting as period armour art can be, Im also somewhat suspicious of how accurate any given artist's sense of complete accuracy may or may not have been.

The image below is prime example. Where are the lacing points? We might expect a glimpse on the shoulder, upper arm or even a suggestion of inside the cotte. Yet the cotte almost looks buttoned up after its taken off....suggesting its stiff perhaps, but that the artist also neglected the perfection of details. Hard to say.

Image
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by PartsAndTechnical »

Image

Playing devils advocate to myself now....some of these images show no lacing points on the upper arm or shoulder.... almost (I dare say) suggesting the mail was had the burden of supporting an arm harness....

Also worth noting the King lacks buttons...that we can see anyway.
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by Gustovic »

I don't understand why people insist to place the points on the arming clothes. Why not directly on the mail? It makes more sense.
Do you have an idea on how difficult is to make pass the laces throught a hauberk when it's already on? Let me tell you, very difficult =).
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by Signo »

Why? Simply because we have proofs that garments had lacing points, so sure, that they were used even in civilian fashion, so sure, that they are still used today in military uniforms, evolved in a purely symbolic fashion. On the other hand, we have little proof of maille that had points directly laced to it. Aguilettes make the job of passing points trough the maille quite easy, other than this, being maille a somewhat stretchy mesh, that is not fixed to the body, the firmness of armour laced through maille is poorer and less effective. Yes, you hardly will notice with poorly made munition one size fit most plate armour, but knights were professionals, and the nuisance to pass a lace (a job of a servant) was a good price for a functional armour. In italian armouring fashion, maille had short and large sleeves in the late XIV° and XV° centuries, and arm harness was laced under the maille sleeve and not above. This is probably true for spaulders (it's not easy to see if people wore spaulders under maille in depictions or carvings), while pauldrons were obviously put above the maille.
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by Gustovic »

Well, my arm harness is all laced to the mail and strapped, and i must say that it's not that unstable or mobile. It stays where it has to be, and it does its job =). (the little guy wwith the axe) http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/85 ... 23226.jpg/
Signo, can you explain your theory about the under-laced arm harness. Sure I do know that it was done, but there is plenty on images that show otherwise. Again, fashions were fashions, so even in a county that has its peculiarities omologation never existed and ther was much space to personal tastes =). (guy with the red skirt swinging the sword in the center) http://manuscriptminiatures.com/queste- ... ncais/104/
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by Signo »

Yes I know those thight fitting long sleeved mailles of the XIV° century, but even then, with a simple hook it's quite easy to fish a lacing under the maille and pull it through it, something like this maybe:
http://www.guidaconsumatore.com/wp-cont ... inetto.jpg
And sorry to say it, but your armour is an example of poorly fitting one size fit most armour, yes, it stay in place and do it's job, just like a fiat panda can commute you to work and home, but knights raced with Formula one cars. Do you catch the meaning of what I say?
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by Gustovic »

I know I know, and for this reason I'll be changing my arm harness :p (though it's quite nice). b(Btw, the arm harness was made to measure, maybe the armourer wasn't that good http://www.bestarmour.com/arm_harness_1.html. In fact now I feel kinda like scammed =D )
I like the analogy with the Panda, well done =).
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by PartsAndTechnical »

I did some more hunting around. That Manuscript Miniatures site is great.


A few things come to mind. I think its fairly established that the order of armour layering was somewhat of a personal thing. We have a pretty broad body of images that suggest the cuirass and fauld were not necessarily a solid unit before the mid 15th century. I mention this because the layering of armour and textiles in the artwork at least, seems to bear that out.

Here, as an example of the variation in layering, we see faulds donned at the outer most layer.
Image
Image
Image

Nevertheless, here we see a curious and clearly quilted cotte worn as the outer layer. Note I wont say worn over the cuirass, because we cant prove it here. However we can see a glint of what appears to be mail underneath but we can also clearly make out an arm harness. That arm harness has to be supported by something. Could it be the mail? Not sure.
Image


Here we see another quilted garment rather like the Charles VI cotte with variable sleeve shapes
Image


This is a very curious series of steps Note that his leg harness is already on from pic one:
Image
Image

Here it seems to be suggesting he may be about to don the mail
Image

Now the mail and cuirass has disappeared.
Image

His arm harness is not yet attached
Image

And here the gauntlet and arm harness are shown as a single unit.
Image

Image


If youre waiting for a conclusive ah-hah, well I dont have one. Sorry. Rather as Ive said before, I believe artists dont always know the details of this stuff and as such we cant always rely on the art to conclusively prove anything. Its certainly intriguing and I also believe personal layering of armour and textiles was a practice more common than we think.
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by James B. »

Looking a bunch at earlier stuff at the moment I am not convinced all arm armors were laced on at all. Much of it seems to float over the maille. Then you have armors where the maille sleeve is over the rearbrace which becomes common int he 15th century. Some 1330-1360s armors show an open maille sleeve at the elbow and the vambrace is under the maille in one example I have you can see lacing on the vambrace indicating it was laced to the arming garment for the maille went on.

I have been doing floating knees with padded and leather parts for armor for a while and have no issues with it. Part of the SCA issues is we over build things and armor is often far too heavy and would slide. My gear tends to be 18g sometimes 20g hardened and it can easily stay in place when buckled on over a properly fitting maille sleeve. One thing we see in floating over maille arms is the maille is tight fitting not baggy and loose.
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by Sean M »

PartsAndTechnical wrote:
RandallMoffett wrote:P and T,

Not from the ones posted here. Most of them have over coats in the same picture. The first one maybe but the others I do not thing so.

As far as buttons vs. lacing. If you do it right you can get the same exact fit regardless.

RPM

Sean,

I lost the context of your reply: "not from the ones posted here"

Do you really think buttons achieve the stability for supporting a leg harness? I guess what I was driving at was a breakdown of logic from the images above, and moreover a question of what we mean by the term arming garments.

a] Do we mean some form of gamboised protection....maybe with a nice outer layer?
b] Do we mean some sort of arming foundation (I often use the phrase "arming cotte", though I could be mistake).
c] Are we presumed to theorize that the leg harness may indeed not be attached
I don't know about the buttons. One hope for these threads is that it will inspire real tailors and armourers to make some interesting things. There are lots of threads where people who have tried several approaches give their views, or people like Randall who have spent years looking at the sources give their opinions, but not so many which list the visual evidence.

For the definition of arming garments, lets use the one in the original post: anything which is put on the upper body before the haubergeon or plates. Trying to figure out how they attached the different bits is another headache :) (But for lacing armour to maille, people might be interested in this thread. I thought I had found evidence for that, but was very graciously shot down by Robert MacPherson).

You can look at the rest of the Queste del Saint Graal manuscript on Manuscript Miniatures or Gallica, and all the knights wear iron plate legharness which wraps around the thighs. I agree that that picture is not perfect- it has the sleeves backwards and no hosen!- but it is some of the best evidence that we have. His body armour is under the red and yellow arming cote, although the paint has flaked away. The man in the Livre des Nobles Femmes and some of the men in the Wenzel Bible just wore maille.

I don`t know why Giron has vambraces and no other armour on. I suspect that the answer is in the text of that story. That is a very fancy doublet, but maybe Arthurian knights don't worry about wrecking their best pourpoint?
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by RandallMoffett »

Sean,

I can add that my wife and I have made as many 14th century textile armours as we can so as far as the buttons to lacing I think I can say that on some degree of certainty as well. Just recently on the lacing post there was the same discussion of buttons verse lacing in art so it is more a non-issue. Looks like both were likely done, though I still like buttons more, just easier on and off.

On the MS question it may be tied to him having hidden armour as well. We cannot be sure what is under armour. One of the reasons why art is a poor guide for what was worn and how. I will look up my Monstrelet quote from Agincourt later as well. It basically gives gambesons, hauberks and full plate harnesses in this order for the French. He wrote it a few decades later than the battle but he was alive when it happened and knew many of the people there.

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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by RandallMoffett »

I am fairly sure that these coats are some type of martial equipment but could not say they were padded for certain but tend to be grouped with hauberks so seems likely as they as given as stand along armour as well. At first I translated it as surcoat as in over the hauberk with arms but I am fairly sure they would not list this as armour by itself.

Henry III, CPR vol. V, pg. 266. 1263

Notification that Peter de Chavent and Roger le Convers, keepers of the king's arms, have deliyered by his order the following arms to the following persons of the king's gif t :—
Herman de Budberg, a hauberk (laricam) with steel chausses (calig*).
Roger le Convers, the like.
John Maunsell, treasurer of York, a steel helmet (capdV) with visor.
Peter de Chauvent, a hauberk with steel chausses ; a helmet (galeam) and coat (coopertur^).
Geoffrey de Bulamund, a hauberk with steel chausses, and a coat.
Imbert Pugeis, the like.
Richard le Norreys, a coat.
Walter de Burgo, a hauberk with steel chausses.
William de Sancta Ermina, the like, with a coat.
Master Henry de Gandavo, the like, with a coat.
William Belet, the like, with a coat.
Nicholas de Sancto Mauro, the like.
Bernard Johannis, a habergeon (Jiaubergdlum) and a gorget
(gorgeram).

This set up shows up very often which is why I assumed the coat was a surcoat over the mail but the more I found alone the more I figured they had to be something more but here is another showing them coupled.

Henry III, 1264, CPR, Vol. 5, pg. 310. Notification that Roger le Convers, keeper of the king's arms, delivered by order of the king to Gaillard de Solers, one coat of mail (lorica) with steel chausses and coat; to Bertram de la Dywe, the like; and to John de Grey, one helmet (galeam), of the king's gift.

Here are some accounts on aketons that show who should have them.... basicnally every one with a moderate amoun of money. remember these are minimum requirements-

Edward II CPR 1321-1324, vol. 4
pp.208-209
15 September 1322
£20 of land –horse worth 100s., (h)aketon, haubergeon, bascinet with aventail, gauntlets of steel (plate), sword, lance and knife.
£10 of land- horse worth 40s., aketon, haubergeon, bascinet with aventail, gauntlets of steel (plate), sword, lance and knife.
100s. (£5) of land or goods- aketon, haubergeon, bascinet with aventail, gauntlets of steel (plate), sword, lance and knife.
40s (£2) of land or goods- aketon, palet. gauntlets, sword, lance and knife.
All men with less- sword, bow and arrow or lance.

You can see here the footmen have to have a aketon and some have to have a hauberk or pair of plates....
Edward II, 1324, CPR, vol. 5, pg. 10. Commission to Stephen de Cobeham, Ralph Sauvage, Henry de Cobeham, and Henry de Goshale, to select in the county of Kent, the
towns of Canterbury and Rochester excepted, 1,040 footmen, 260 to be armed with haketons, hauberks or plate armour, bacinets and gauntlets of steel, and the remainder with haketons and steel bacinets and other competent arms.

Edward II, 1322,CPR, vol. 4, pg. Mandate to the justiciary of Ireland to raise 1,000 hobelers and 6,000 footmen armed with haketon, basinet and gauntlets, and to conduct them to Carlisle by the octaves of Holy Trinity. [Parl. Writs.]

Edward III, 1328, CPR vol. 1, pg. 230. 200 men were by the king's command there levied by Thomas de Mounceaux and John de Sourdeval, to be conducted to York for the Scotch expedition, and provided, at their cost, with hacquetons, bascinets, gauntlets, and courtepies of one suit...

Edward II, 1324 Aug. 6. vol. 5, pg.10. Commission to Stephen de Cobeham, Ralph Sauvage, Henry de Cobeham, and Henry de Goshale, to select in the county of Kent, the
towns of Canterbury and Rochester excepted, 1,040 footmen, 260 to be armed with haketons, hauberks or plate armour, bacinets and gauntlets of steel, and the remainder with haketons and steel bacinets and other competent arms (the armour directed to be provided by the Statute of Winchester, being only intended for the preservation of the
peace, and not being sufficient for the defence of the realm against foreign invasion), the said armour to be provided at the expense of the commonalty of the county, the said cities being excepted, and to be kept by the commonalties of the towns until the selected men set out, and upon their return to be restored to the. custody of the commonalties; and they
are to array the said selected men in twenties and hundreds. By K. & C.

And a well to do gents equipment. note the shield for himself with horn...

Richard II, 1378 CPR vol. I, pg. 201, Pardon to Robert Salle, knight, for all negligence, misprisions, trespasses or defaults in having left without licence the castle of Merk in the march of Calais when governor thereof and come into England, whereby, by the treachery and rebellion of those to whom he had committed it to keep, it was forcibly detained by them against the king, to be delivered to the French, until recovered for the king by the captain of Calais ; and of all forfeiture whether of body or goods incurred thereby, except of the goods which he had in it at the time of its said detention, yet of the harness and armour (hernesiis et armaturis) therein which were his, the king grants him for his own person a complete harness for war, viz. a pair of iron braces, a pair of iron shoes (sabatons), a complete harness of iron jarnbes with pully pieces (poleyns), cuisses and faudes (voiders) a coat of iron and a pair of plates covered with gold cloth, a red breastplate, a jack of gold with buckles and pendants of silver gilt, a basinet with an aventail of steel, together with the staples of the basnet, a chapelet of silver gilt,
a helmet with crest, a pair of plated gauntlets, a sword and a war dagger, a Bordeaux axe, a shield of steel-plated horn, a red lance with Bordeaux head and a white pavice with the head of a black eagle erased. By p.s. [349.]

And some later evidence

Henry VI, 1451, CPR Henry VI vol. 5, pg. 453. April 1. The like to John Skurme of Cranebroke, co. Kent, ' taillour,' for all offences, as above, and for having with others on Saturdaybefore the Purification,29 HenryVI, at Cranebroke lain in wait for and assaulted
John Dragheuere, constable of Cranebroke hundred, and withdrawn Thomas Couper of Cranebroke, in the said constable's keeping, arrested for suspicion of felony, and for havingbythe name of John Scoorme late of Cranebroke, ‘husbondman’ with other rebels in Kent, plotting to annul the laws and customs of the realm, to spoil the lords spiritual and temporal and the king's lieges of their goods against catholic law and the laws and customs of the realm, on Monday before Christmas, 29 Henry VI, d customs of the realm, on Monday before Christmas,29 Henry VI, at Sevenoke, Cranebroke and elsewhere in Kent, risen up and met together to the number of 60 men, and, armed with staves, bows, arrows, shirts of mail, defensive doublets, battle-axes, briganders, scythes, salets, iron caps, longbills (longis rostris) and other arms, sworn all to stand together and to
have the goods of divers prelates and gentlemen and the king's lieges in the
county and the heads of divers lords spiritual or temporarl: and of any consequent outlawries.

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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by James B. »

I too have tried buttons and lacing, I prefer lacing for stability and flatness but both did the job.
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by RScivias »

Found this, on a later period. Jean Fouquet created a tapestry, which was destroyed in the Modern period. In 1621, Pieresc made some drawings from this tapestry.
The scene is called "Le connétable Arthur de Richemont prenant congé de ses compagnons d'armes"
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by Galfrid atte grene »

I went through and tagged 28 effigies/brasses that show points of some sort (1310-1440): http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... tle=Points
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by PartsAndTechnical »

I think James may have some points about floating armour....no pun intended.

I also suspect quilted over-cottes (lacking a good work) may have served as a means of hiding a brigadine/corrazina type armour or simply to add some color to a rather monochromatic appearance....oddly enough.


But in the end, provided a basic acceptable appearance was met, I think a knight had his own preferences as to what he liked or didnt feel comfortable with....just as modern soldiers tend to tinker with their gear a bit. Everyones body is a bit different. I know that it bugs me when my leg harness feels like its falling down or not cupped over my knee properly. I was annoyed by that very slight gravity tug that gauntlets present when the hand is opened downward...bugged me when spaulders would *feel* like they were rotating around even though they werent. So I started attaching to my cuirass straps and it proved more stable. It wasnt a super obvious alternation...but it worked better for me at the time. To each his own, more or less.
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by RandallMoffett »

"But in the end, provided a basic acceptable appearance was met, I think a knight had his own preferences as to what he liked or didnt feel comfortable with....just as modern soldiers tend to tinker with their gear a bit. Everyones body is a bit different. I know that it bugs me when my leg harness feels like its falling down or not cupped over my knee properly. I was annoyed by that very slight gravity tug that gauntlets present when the hand is opened downward...bugged me when spaulders would *feel* like they were rotating around even though they werent. So I started attaching to my cuirass straps and it proved more stable. It wasnt a super obvious alternation...but it worked better for me at the time. To each his own, more or less."

P and T

I think even more so as they bought much of their own gear as well so you have I like it this way and various origins for the armour.

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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by PartsAndTechnical »

On the subject of personal layering preferences....this is a good example of a Charles VI coat with a fauld over it.

Image

Meanwhile we see other knights with the entire cuirass breast and back underneath.


Another stand alone fauld over a quilted cotte
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/besancon-bm-ms865/1583/


And a presumably stand alone mail fauld which is fairly unusual
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/static/ ... 387-16.jpg
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by PartsAndTechnical »

This is very curious....and remarkably fine material for something directly under mail. Curiously, no points are obviously visible on the shoulders/upper arm.....on the other hand we dont see any arm harness in the picture, nor a cuirass. Go figure.

Image
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by PartsAndTechnical »

And another, probably copied or vice versa. But no points at the arm. .....and no arm harness/cuirass either.

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/static/ ... /386-9.jpg
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by Sean M »

Parts and Technical, do you have the source for those last two images? In Italy, between the abandonment of floating rerebraces and the adoption of the pauldron, there would be no plate on the upper arm, just the haubergeon, aventail, and gorget. So I think that any points for the vambraces are hidden by the haubergeon, and depending on where the MS comes from we might not expect any rerebraces or plate shoulder defense.

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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by PartsAndTechnical »

Hey Sean

Good points.

Most of these are from the http://manuscriptminiatures.com site.

As a passing thought, I tend to be a little bit liberal in assessment of regional styles, if only because I think we sometimes overlook both commerce and travel among the nobility, trips to ancient sites, pilgrimages etc. My point was only that I think personal layering preferences and experimentation was more common--I dont like to be *too* ridged.

I kept meaning to mention this....isnt there some sense that after circa 1380 in central and northern europe, the mail shirt became increasingly rather redundant under a good solid cuirass and deep fauld? We could push it to say 1400, because not long after we see early voiders and gussets sewn to arming doublets if Im not mistaken? Im mentioning this because pointing the armour to the mail has relevance (or not). Certainly some knights relied on mail and a cuirass, but it does get pretty heavy. I think the sense that the earlier C.O.P. was a a secondary defense over mail remained for some time after the emergence of the first globose cuirasses. But by the late 14th century, the full mail shirt seems to be something many knights were abandoning. Of course its hard to tell in the art or effigies when they have a full cuirass on :?


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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by RandallMoffett »

Drew,

Can any of us prove that? I have found 0 evidence until the mid 15th for voiders and such as a replacement for a hauberk. In fact I wonder if the smaller bits of mail such as skirts and sleeves worn were a cost cutting method for poorer troops as the place I tend to find them is for arming masses and stockpiles... Into the 1st quarter of the 15th the only examples I can think of are full plate harness with hauberk and gambeson. Monstrelet is clear the French at Agincourt were still wearing full hauberks under their full harnesses for example. It is not until the mid 15th I think I can find anything clear that this has indeed happened. I'd love to see something that disproves this but so far it is all based on the assumption that once they had full plate harnesses it was not needed so they ditched them but that does not seem to be what happened from what I have seen.

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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by Galfrid atte grene »

Sean, the images are from BNF Arsenal 5193 and BGE Ms. fr. 190/1, respectively.
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by Effingham »

PartsAndTechnical wrote:This is very curious....and remarkably fine material for something directly under mail. Curiously, no points are obviously visible on the shoulders/upper arm.....on the other hand we dont see any arm harness in the picture, nor a cuirass. Go figure.

Image
I know this isn't what we're discussing, but...

What the heck is happening in this picture? I need context for what seems like a nasty thing to have happened.
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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by RandallMoffett »

Sean,

Reminded me they do start to use habergeons pretty early over hauberks at times so we do in some cases lose the sleeves. We do have some other options than just a hauberk.

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Re: Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Bo

Post by James B. »

Galfrid atte grene wrote:I went through and tagged 28 effigies/brasses that show points of some sort (1310-1440): http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... tle=Points
Many of these effigies show what I am talking about only the loosely floating disc at the elbow shows any pointing, nothing is shown for the elbow cop, or the rearbrace. As I stated some armor is clearly pointed to the under garment such as some vambraces examples but I have yet to see rearbraces over maille show points.
James B.
In the SCA: Master James de Biblesworth
Archer in La Belle Compagnie
Historic Life
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