Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Body

[Dan Howard]

Good stuff. Bertus is da man.

[Sean M]

The Limburger Chronik is a great source to read.

Danke Bertus, I will update my translation when I have time. My German is still poor, so long texts in 14th century German are beyond my powers. I have reason to suspect that my German will be much better a year from now however

[Len Parker]

Check out the guy at bottom left http://manuscriptminiatures.com/wenzel- ... 2762/4869/ Does that look like a cord going across his maille to his thigh plates? It looks like it goes through a couple of rings. I'm not sure if that's a maille shirt or maille breeches. I thought the cord might be a belt holding up breeches, but it looks a little too low, and it arcs down towards the plates.

[Bertus Brokamp]

The Limburger Chronik is a great source to read.

Danke Bertus, I will update my translation when I have time. My German is still poor, so long texts in 14th century German are beyond my powers. I have reason to suspect that my German will be much better a year from now however

Heh. I'm just lucky to be Dutch because Middle-Dutch and Middle-Low-German were in fact the same language with different regional dialects within. Only from the 16th c. onwards when High-German took over and the Low Countries became independent from the Holy Roman Empire did Dutch and German grow apart. So it does not really matter to me if I try to read 14th and 15th c. texts from Bruges, Amsterdam, Lübeck, Cologne or Limburg and der Lahn.
Just makes me wish my grasp of French was better.

[Marshal]

Check out the guy at bottom left http://manuscriptminiatures.com/wenzel- ... 2762/4869/ Does that look like a cord going across his maille to his thigh plates? It looks like it goes through a couple of rings. I'm not sure if that's a maille shirt or maille breeches. I thought the cord might be a belt holding up breeches, but it looks a little too low, and it arcs down towards the plates.

The horseman? I'd be tempted to say it was an artifact of aging of the medium, but the mounted fellow at the far right ( in brown ) has something that looks like a chain hanging down. It doesn't seem to go anywhere.

[Len Parker]

The guy in blue standing up (bottom left). When I saved this and looked at it in a smaller size, it looks like the cord goes through five rings.

[Mac]

Len,


I think that the artist meant us to understand this as the sort of mail skirt that dips down in the front to cover the groin.

While is is tantalizing to think that we are seeing a rare technical detail here, I think that to do so would be to read more into this than the artist intended. I think the white line is just the space between where he stopped painting the blue of the garment (or fabric covered armor) and started painting the mail. The vertical lines which cross into this white area are probably just errant strokes of the brush; a couple of mail rings that were to be in the row he decided not to paint.

As you pointed out, the line is really too low to be representing the upper edge of a mail breech. If he were wearing a mail breech that was held up by a sort of drawstring, the upper edge should be up under the fauld of his armor. Otherwise he has a serious gap in his defenses.

Mac

[Len Parker]

Mac,

I definitely see what you're saying. To me it looked like a deliberate spacing of the rings with a cord going through them. He does use white (or lack of paint) to show solid objects like the chains on the knights.

[Mac]

And you may be right, Len.

A thing that would help us to understand the artist's intent, is to know what makes up the "white" area. If it is the parchment showing through between colors, then I think it is just a lapse on the artist's part. If it is a line of lead-white pigment, then It seems more likely that he was trying to show us something.

Mac

[Heinrich H]

And you may be right, Len.

If it is a line of lead-white pigment,

Mac

Leadwhite tends to darken over the years and most likely be dark grey now.

[Mac]

And you may be right, Len.

If it is a line of lead-white pigment,

Mac

Leadwhite tends to darken over the years and most likely be dark grey now.

Heinrich,

I think that in the case of this illumination, the lead-white is still pretty fresh looking. I believe that the round dots on the horse harness are done in lead. Likewise, there is white trim on the cloak of the fellow who is stabbing the King in the upper left. The shields also have decoration in white.

Mac

[Len Parker]

I'm out of ideas on the cord thingy.

Don't these elbows look like they're buckled directly to the maille? http://manuscriptminiatures.com/astrolo ... m785/6190/ If so, in this case there wouldn't be a need for arming points on the doublet ...unless the maille had slits for the leather straps, but I've never seen strapping through maille.

Also, notice the back strap going up to the scale helmet. Awhile back there was some confusion about the purpose of these straps. I think that was cleared up though.

[Len Parker]

The statue of St. George in Prague has the leg harness buckled to the COP http://www.svjiri.wz.cz/

[Mac]

The statue of St. George in Prague has the leg harness buckled to the COP http://www.svjiri.wz.cz/

Len,

Look again closely. I'm pretty sure that you will agree that the strap you are seeing there used to hold his dagger. The corresponding one oh the other side still holds his sword scabbard.

Mac

[Sean M]

I don't see a similar strap from his cuirass to his left cuisse, and I think this suggests that Mac is right.

The white line in the Wenzel Bible could also be the bottom of a pair of plates or a way of suggesting that the jupon is thick. Look at the bottom of the belt of the spearman with a red cuirass and green hosen.

"How do the different pieces of a 14th century harness attach to each other" would make a good thread, but it is off topic for this one. I want to focus on things which are put on before the first piece of metal or hardened leather armour.

[Mac]

I don't see a similar strap from his cuirass to his left cuisse, and I think this suggests that Mac is right.


"How do the different pieces of a 14th century harness attach to each other" would make a good thread, but it is off topic for this one.

The other tip offs are....

--There is no tongue in the "buckle". If you look closely, you will see that is it is just a rectangular ring attached to the brigandine skirt.
--Attaching leg armor to the body armor is not a thing that is going to work well. If you tried it, I think you would find that it would seriously reduce the amount that you could twist your torso. Any attempt to twist your shoulders opposite your hips would rotate one cuisse into your groin, and the other into your butt. Of course, if your knees were flexed the cuisses could not rotate....but then neither could your shoulders. Even if it were not an ergonomic faux pas, the suspension straps would probably fail pretty quickly.

On the other hand, what we do have here is one answer to the question of how the sword and dagger might be worn with a hip belt. In this case, the weight of the weapons is born my the skirts of the armor, rather than the belt.

Mac

[Sean M]

I have added the information from the Norwich militia rolls to the first post in this thread.

Various, Norwich Rolls of Arms (English, circa 1340s-1360s): These list men who appeared at musters and the equipment that they presented. Some rolls just describe the equipment of an "armed man" or "fully-armed man" once, others list variations. Roll A (1355) has doublets and plates, roll B (before 1370) has pourpoints and plates, roll C (1340s-1360s) has haketoun and plates, roll E (one of the years 1359/60, 1361/2, or 1365/6) has purpont and plates, roll F (on back of roll E) has pourpoint and plates or aketon and haubergeon (homines proxime infra armati sund cum purpoys & platee vel Alketoun & haub'ionem bacinetto cum auentaill cerotecis de plat' gladio & cutell'), and roll H (Easter 1359) lists 9 "dublets" and 21 "plates alias pairs of plates" but no other padded garments among other arms. So an aketon, pourpoint, or doublet could be worn underneath a pair of plates, but in Norfolk at this time "pourpoint" was the most popular name. See W. Hudson, "Norwich Militia in the Fourteenth Century," Nrf. Archaeol. 14 (1901) pp. 263-321 Link

All of those words seem to imply many-layered, stuffed garments, and they are listed with arms unlike say the shirts and hosen which everyone must have worn at muster.

Does anyone know of lists of materials and quantities used to make one pourpoint, aketon, gambeson, or doublet in the mid to late fourteenth century other than the ones in Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince? Reading those lists alongside Tasha's article on the pourpoint of Charles VI is educational.

We have lots of sources which say "an aketon of buckram" or "a pourpont covered in striped fustian" but those lists of exact quantities of cloth and notions are very helpful ... and a bit early and English for me.

[Sean M]

Jessica Finley of Fühlen Designs has been fascinated by this picture for some time. She thinks it shows an eyelet doublet. I have asked her for the shelfmark and folio, but until then, does anyone else recognize it?



Tineye failed me because FB mangles images to save on storage space.

[Mac]

There's a pretty big image here http://wiktenauer.com/images/c/cc/MS_78.A.15_37r.jpg

It's from a Talhoffer Fechtbuch



Mac

[Sean M]

I wish I could read the gloss. Greg Mele tells me that some of the kinds of duel in Talhoffer are last documented in the 12th century, so just because he taught them does not mean that they were part of life outside his school.

Is that a haubergeon with a built-in panty/brayette in the upper left?

[Ernst]

Similar to RA III.1354,
https://collections.royalarmouries.org/ ... -1218.html

or Mus. de l'Armee G PO 2749.
http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSearchZ ... 6NU0BAJXB3

[Mac]

Is that a haubergeon with a built-in panty/brayette in the upper left?

And how 'bout those mail (covered?) booties?

Mac

[Ernst]

Perhaps the chaussons which often appear in inventories distinguished from chausses?

[Sean M]

The late 15th century guys are inspired by a painting by the Maestro de Sopetrán, "El duque del Infantado" (painted c. 1470, Museo del Prado P002576). High-resolution photos are now available on their website and on Wikimedia Commons (thanks Tom B) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Sopetran-santillana.jpg

I think that it is the points which intrigue them, because there is no armour in that painting. Does anyone interested in that period want to comment? The Tudor Tailor group made one for Toby Capwell http://www.tudortailor.com/news/whats-n ... f-defence/

[Sean M]

Mac reminded me of the B&W painting of a soldier with a purse around his neck which Blaz Berlec found and posted on Photobucket.



It is in the Museum of Fine Arts, Budapest, accession number 1778. They say it is by a Bolognese master circa 1400 not 1435-1445 as Blaz heard.

If so, I think it is the oldest picture of laces in the upper sleeve of a doublet.

[Gustovic]

Actually, there's an earlier one.

From the BNF Nouvelle acquisition française 5243 Guiron le Courtois, dated 1370-1380, north Italy.

[Ernst]

Actually, there's an earlier one.

From the BNF Nouvelle acquisition française 5243 Guiron le Courtois, dated 1370-1380, north Italy.

Folio 25r, bottom left -
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... 9/f55.item

[Mac]

Here he is, already cropped and pinned, but without the digital enhancement of Augusto's image.



It begs the question, though. What are those laces for? He already has his vambraces attached.... presumably with other laces we can't see. What's more, he seems to have mail on the insides of his elbows. This all leaves me confused about layering.

Mac

[Klaus the Red]

Hm- either there is a floating upper cannon that this chap is not wearing, or the lace is meant to indicate that he's wearing a full arm pointed on from inside the sleeve instead of outside. Occam's razor (and the fact that the lace seems to be untied) favors the former.

[Sean M]

Great find Gustovic!

Are those guys hiding upper cannons under their sleeves of mail? In the 'armour rack' scene we just have an elbow and a lower cannon and sleeves of mail.