Late Fourteenth Century Arming Garments II: The Upper Body

[Galfrid atte grene]

(snip) As I stated some armor is clearly pointed to the under garment such as some vambraces examples but I have yet to see rearbraces over maille show points.

Jean de Walcourt (1362) has a rerebrace over mail with a point.

[Galfrid atte grene]

I know this isn't what we're discussing, but...

What the heck is happening in this picture? I need context for what seems like a nasty thing to have happened.

It shows Artaxerxes I murdering Artabanus (not to be confused with Artabanus' earlier murder of Xerxes I, father of Artaxerxes I).

[Effingham]

Cool! Thanks.

[Sean M]

One of the reasons why art is a poor guide for what was worn and how. I will look up my Monstrelet quote from Agincourt later as well. It basically gives gambesons, hauberks and full plate harnesses in this order for the French. He wrote it a few decades later than the battle but he was alive when it happened and knew many of the people there.

RPM

I don't know. Art can only show outer layers, but text can only tell us what things were called, and the archaeological evidence is scarce and indirect. This period does not have a lot of arming scenes in either written or visual media. The Modus Armandi Milites does match effigies from the 1320s very well. So I think we need to use all kinds of evidence to learn what was put on before the first piece of iron armour.

I don't think that Giron has hidden armour, because the doublet resembles those in others such as the disarming scene here (Gallica: here), and because there is no maille at the neck or hem and no legharness.

I know this isn't what we're discussing, but...

What the heck is happening in this picture? I need context for what seems like a nasty thing to have happened.

Good old Justinus! According to http://www.e-codices.unifr.ch, its the story of Artaxerxes I killing Artabanus. Since at this date the French could not read Greek, and since its not Roman history, the author must have been using book 3 of the Justin's Epitoma Pompeii Troagi (English and original Latin) directly or indirectly. Word to the wise: when you have killed the king and only one man stands between you and the throne, and that man suddenly asks if you could take off your lorica so he can see if it fits him better, don't listen!

Terry Jones reiminds me of another source:

He dide next his white leere (He put on next to his clear, white skin)
Of cloth of lake, fyn and cleere, (of delicate, clean linen cloth)
A breech, and eke a sherte (Underwear, and also a shirt)
And nexte his sherte an aketoun, (And next to his shirt an aketon)
And over that an haubergeoun
For percynge of his herte; (for piercing of his heart)
And over that a fyn hawberk (and over that a fine hauberk)
Was all ywrought of Jewes werk, (was completely wrought of Jewish work)
Ful strong it was of plate; (It was very strong and made of plate)
and over that his cote-armour,
as whit as is a lilye flour, (as white as a lily flower is)
In which he wol debate. (in which he wanted to fight)
- Chaucer, Sir Topas, lines 860-868

As I read this again, it seems basically realistic ... its the little things, such as the clear skin and the Jewish plates, which make it a parody. That gives us three sources for armed men who "had a shirt upon them," although I am sure that was a matter of preference.

Do we have any other sources for what was put on the chest before the first piece of metal body armour?

[James B.]

(snip) As I stated some armor is clearly pointed to the under garment such as some vambraces examples but I have yet to see rearbraces over maille show points.

Jean de Walcourt (1362) has a rerebrace over mail with a point.

Personally I am looking at 1340-50, and I do not mean to imply its all done one way.

[Galfrid atte grene]

(snip) As I stated some armor is clearly pointed to the under garment such as some vambraces examples but I have yet to see rearbraces over maille show points.

Jean de Walcourt (1362) has a rerebrace over mail with a point.

Personally I am looking at 1340-50, and I do not mean to imply its all done one way.

Sorry, I assumed you meant later 14th century, as you didn't specify, and that is the topic of the thread.

[PartsAndTechnical]

Dont we have that image of the two knights carrying the wounded knight? We can see their backs, with notable exception to the lack of a full mail shirt? (I prefer shirt to avoid any sense of the mail being a primary defense). I was trying to find that image....I rather thought it was dated first quarter 15th century? Am I wrong on that? Maybe its just wishful thinking on my part. Bloody heavy all that mail and plate. But my sense is that a mail shirt or even a gamboised cotte of some sort acted as a mid level ""Defcon"" defense....not ideal for full battle, but something a little bit lighter for use in between battles, etc. Certainly with higher carbon armours starting to emerge in the late 14th and early 15th, it would seem some abandoned the full shirt. Just a theory and mostly because the art seems to be very stylized....pictures that are copied in both form and style, leaving me to doubt the full technical accuracy. An artist of say 45-60 years of age might still draw upon his memory of knights arming up when he was a young man; he may not be an armour expert any more than I am a car expert, even though I see them every day. Its very tricky to rely on these almost cartoonish images as technically accurate; I think they represents as much symbolism as they do anything. Some details, yes. Completely reliable, doubtful.


At any rate, here are a few more great pics:

This pretty clearly shows what is certainly an arming cotte under the mail. And actually I think its one of the most revealing pictures almost showing us the top of the leg harness. His arms are upwards, near his head. Not removed, lol
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/francais-226/1826/




Here is a nice laced cotte. Im not 100% if this is an arming cotte or not. Theres a bit of cord dangling down possibly suggesting it has another use...but its also clear its used to support his wool hose.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/breviar ... 1351/4351/



Look at the guy in the lower left hand side of the screen. He wears a quilted cotte of sorts with a fauld over it. But we can also see an arm harness up underneth the sleeves. Talk about layering. .........Now scroll your eyes UP and see the we can see another knight undressing....the cotte is clearly under the mail shirt, and we can see a breastplate to the side. That is one of the smallest, yet most revealing images as we rarely see the cuirass "in situ"
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/bible-h ... is-3/2572/

[RandallMoffett]

Sean,

I am not trying to say they did not have a number of systems only that with art one often cannot tell what the layers are.

Drew,

If you can find that picture I'd be interested in it. So far I have never seen anything like that. Your logic might be sound but that does nto mean it happened that way.... it is not really artisits I am basing my theory on but soldiers who fought at that time such as Monstrelet or I might agree that was possible but hard to think a guy who fought there would do that.

RPM

[PartsAndTechnical]

Sean,


I presume your referring to the knights carrying the wounded knight? I see it all the time but cant recall the name. I think its either 1425 or 1445, in which case (the latter) I withdraw the theory, lol

-D

[PartsAndTechnical]

btw, on the subject of arming cottes....in the past I wore a canvas belt-girdle.

I am finishing up a full de Blois style arming cotte. Im hemming the bottom edge of my cotte now. Should be done tonight or tomorrow. Then on to quilting *and champagne bottles*.



For those of you who have made them, how high up inside do you sew your pointing tabs?

Seems to me that the tabs would be more ideal if mounted just over the hip line to adequately support and resist the tug and pull of the leg harness.

And what have folks found is an idea tabbing material? Leather? Multiple layers of linen/hemp canvas?




.
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[Mac]

I believe that has been a call for this pic....?



Mac

[RandallMoffett]

What is the date on this Mac?

[PartsAndTechnical]

Yes thats it, but it appears to be some question as to its date, per this passage, so Im a little fuzzy, but the bigger image clearly shows a later period helmet in the scene, from here:

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic ... c&start=60

The author IS NOT Pisanello but Giovanni di ser Niccolò de Castadis from Fano (a lively town in Italy, Marche region); he is actually believed to be both the copyist and the artist who made all illuminations.
The reference work is a transcription of the Epitoma historiarum Philippicarum Pompei Trogi by Marco Giuniano Giustino; it's dated 1460, June 17th (one can find this date at folio 101v) and part of Ottobonian Manuscripts, currently held at Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana in Rome (Ottob. lat. 1417) The scene depicts a wounded Agesilao, carried to his tent by two squires (folio 22)

....Im fuzzy on the "1417".....



.

[Galfrid atte grene]

The 1417 is the manuscript's accession number, not a date.

[PartsAndTechnical]

gotchya.

Damn....I knew that was too good to be true!

[PartsAndTechnical]

reposting this...love to get opinions:



btw, on the subject of arming cottes....in the past I wore a canvas belt-girdle.

I am finishing up a full de Blois style arming cotte. Im hemming the bottom edge of my cotte now. Should be done tonight or tomorrow. Then on to quilting *and champagne bottles*.





For those of you who have made them, how high up inside do you sew your pointing tabs?

Seems to me that the tabs would be more ideal if mounted just over the hip line to adequately support and resist the tug and pull of the leg harness.

And what have folks found is an idea tabbing material? Leather? Multiple layers of linen/hemp canvas?

[RandallMoffett]

1460.... that seems right. If any one does find something earlier let me know. When I first started reenactment I really would have loved to have ditched my hauberk but it has really grown on me. But I'd still be interested.

P and T,

Let me ask. I think above the toops of the hips sounds right but let me ask first.

RPM

[Sean M]

Look at the guy in the lower left hand side of the screen. He wears a quilted cotte of sorts with a fauld over it. But we can also see an arm harness up underneth the sleeves. Talk about layering. .........Now scroll your eyes UP and see the we can see another knight undressing....the cotte is clearly under the mail shirt, and we can see a breastplate to the side. That is one of the smallest, yet most revealing images as we rarely see the cuirass "in situ"
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/bible-h ... is-3/2572/

I think the first one you found, with the halfsword grip, is another take on Artaxerxes and Artabanus. That story seems to have been popular!

That last one is very good. It looks like he has a breastplate but no backplate? Unfortunately, the Mandragore image is small, and it does not seem to be on Gallica.

[Galfrid atte grene]

For those of you who have made them, how high up inside do you sew your pointing tabs?

Seems to me that the tabs would be more ideal if mounted just over the hip line to adequately support and resist the tug and pull of the leg harness.

And what have folks found is an idea tabbing material? Leather? Multiple layers of linen/hemp canvas?

Mine are sewn in about 3 inches down from the waist, to align exactly with the top of the cuisse. They are tightly affixed and don't dangle. I used a leather tab under 2 layers of linen.

[PartsAndTechnical]

I see folks mount them low. Is there direct evidence for this height vs higher up and running the points a few inches?

Given the weight and tension of a leg harness, Im leery of using the actual civilian de Blois cotte with respect to the location of mounting points (for the hose) as a direct comparison to to arming version.

[Tailoress]

I see folks mount them low. Is there direct evidence for this height vs higher up and running the points a few inches?

Given the weight and tension of a leg harness, Im leery of using the actual civilian de Blois cotte with respect to the location of mounting points (for the hose) as a direct comparison to to arming version.

Drew, I'd recommend you start a separate thread for this practical question concerning your own kit, so as not to dilute Sean's research-only thread. You'd probably get more takers on answering, too.

[Tailoress]

For some relevant commentary on the term "pourpoint", see this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=151779

We should put it to rest that in the 14thc the term was NOT used for a sleeveless vest intended as the foundation upon which legs could be pointed. It refers to a padded, quilted garment, at least in France, in the 14thc. It appears to have evolved to mean "a garment you point stuff to" later, in English.

As for the Kienbusch arming garment, I examined it in January of 2007(?) while suffering from a raging cold, but I recall thinking the sleeve tailoring made a case for it being an early 17thc garment. The sleeves had two long seams, which we see in 16th/17thc tailoring and later, but if it was common earlier, we don't have solid visual evidence for it -- that I've seen personally... but that doesn't mean it wasn't used. The rest of the garment, however, has a silhouette and tailoring method much more at home in the 14thc, so I'm still not entirely sold on the date. The separate mail sleeves with integral voiders make more of a case for the later date, though. The coat is unquilted on the back left side, interestingly enough; covered in leather, lined in course linen. It's been suggested this was a fencing doublet.

[Sean M]

Thanks Tasha. I was interested to note that ffoulkes got the etymology of pourpoint correct! Those old philologists knew their work.

It seems like "what were the cuisses attached to?" remains the key question. I am not sure if any of the evidence so far helps. Maybe its significant that the aketon does not ride up in art, even when the wearer is bent over? So far we don't have much evidence for laces on the upper arms either.

[Galfrid atte grene]

Here is a rare incised slab that shows the top of the legs, unobscured: http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... 536/large/ (1439, but in a style applicable to the late 14th)

[Mac]

Here is a rare incised slab that shows the top of the legs, unobscured: http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... 536/large/ (1439, but in a style applicable to the late 14th)

Galfred,

I am pretty sure that what we are seeing here is not the tops of the cuisses, but rather the bottom of the mail skirt. If the skirt expansions are places at the sides and the center, the lower edge will fall into points.

Mac

[PartsAndTechnical]

I see folks mount them low. Is there direct evidence for this height vs higher up and running the points a few inches?

Given the weight and tension of a leg harness, Im leery of using the actual civilian de Blois cotte with respect to the location of mounting points (for the hose) as a direct comparison to to arming version.

Drew, I'd recommend you start a separate thread for this practical question concerning your own kit, so as not to dilute Sean's research-only thread. You'd probably get more takers on answering, too.

I see your point and dont mean to derail, however it seems to me that the very nature of his opening question

"What, if anything, did a late 14th century soldier put on his chest before the haubergeon or plates?"

invariably and inevitably relates to the upper leg armour and arm harness if only because its function may have some dictation upon its cut/shape, thickness, padding and even its relation to a full mail shirt or components. The point I was trying to make earlier is that when it comes to armour and combat, we see so many variations of layering and that has direct bearing on how armour is supported. Something supported the leg harness and spaulders/arm harness (and maybe even a separate fauld in some cases)...which means that the rigors of movement and armour weight had to have had some bearing on the specificity regarding the answer.

[Mac]

It seems like "what were the cuisses attached to?" remains the key question. I am not sure if any of the evidence so far helps. Maybe its significant that the aketon does not ride up in art, even when the wearer is bent over?

Sean,

Is there any reason to think that they are not just tied to the doublet like hosen? It's true, that we don't have any pics that show that, but there is not much reason why we would. If the points were up inside the skirt like they are on the Charles de Blois doublet, they would only be depicted in the most extraordinary circumstances.

So far we don't have much evidence for laces on the upper arms either.

If the arm defenses were tied to the sleeves of the habergeon, we would not see any laces on the sleeves of the doublets. Perhaps the 15th C. fashion for points on the doublet sleeves begins when habergeons are supplanted by voiders.

Mac

[PartsAndTechnical]

It seems like "what were the cuisses attached to?" remains the key question. I am not sure if any of the evidence so far helps. Maybe its significant that the aketon does not ride up in art, even when the wearer is bent over?

Sean,

Is there any reason to think that they are not just tied to the doublet like hosen? It's true, that we don't have any pics that show that, but there is not much reason why we would. If the points were up inside the skirt like they are on the Charles de Blois doublet, they would only be depicted in the most extraordinary circumstances.

So far we don't have much evidence for laces on the upper arms either.

If the arm defenses were tied to the sleeves of the habergeon, we would not see any laces on the sleeves of the doublets. Perhaps the 15th C. fashion for points on the doublet sleeves begins when habergeons are supplanted by voiders.

Mac

The only reason I can think of is that there was something else under the doublet OR that the points were mounted high enough (hence my question earlier) that they did not distort the shape and still remained hidden so that laces untied, did not hang below the hem line.

[James B.]

The Charles de Blois garment had tabs with eyelets for pointing inside the garment, the same could be true for an arming garment.

[Donal Mac Ruiseart]

(Turns out the question I tried to answer here was already answered.)

[Klaus the Red]

The Charles de Blois garment had tabs with eyelets for pointing inside the garment, the same could be true for an arming garment.

Actually, the points are sewn directly to the peplum- formed by strips of cloth twisted into strings, I believe. Unfortunately, this is the best resolution image I have. I have successfully used eyelet strips on my previous interpretations of the CdB, and I'm working on another where I plan to do the same.

[Klaus the Red]

I believe there is one figure in the "Paduan sketchbook", second q. 15th c., showing a king wearing an arming coat with points coming through the upper sleeves. This was from a series of line drawings of mythical/classical kings in contemporary harness. Several figures are reproduced in J.G. Mann's initial study on the armors of the Sanctuary of the Madonna della Grazie (Archaeologia 80, 1930), but not, alas, the one I'm looking for.

[Mac]

Klaus,

I wonder if you are conflating these two images.




They are pulled from Blaz's thread over on Myarmoury. http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=21451 Dr Toby published them in his article on arming doublets in Waffen- und Kostümkunde (or whatever it is currently called)

They are later than what we are discussing, but sometimes it helps to "see where they went", and work back from there.

Mac

[Klaus the Red]

Mac, the top image is exactly the one I was thinking of. The style and lettering are identical to the images shown in Mann's article. Toby cites it as "1435 - 1445 King Syphax (fol 2825v), Istituto al Gabinetto, Rome," whereas Mann refers to the MS being held in the Camera dell Stampe, Rome, but I have no doubt these are from the same "Paduan sketchbook."

K

[Sean M]

It seems like "what were the cuisses attached to?" remains the key question. I am not sure if any of the evidence so far helps. Maybe its significant that the aketon does not ride up in art, even when the wearer is bent over?

Sean,

Is there any reason to think that they are not just tied to the doublet like hosen? It's true, that we don't have any pics that show that, but there is not much reason why we would. If the points were up inside the skirt like they are on the Charles de Blois doublet, they would only be depicted in the most extraordinary circumstances.

I don't think so, but at the same time I don't see evidence against the “waist belt” approach. I think that Chaucer, the Quest del Saant Graal, Giron le Courtoise, and How a Man Shall be Armed argue against the “arming vest” approach. Pointing the cuisses to the aketon matches Occam's Razor, but it would be comforting to know more. I will save other thoughts for a practical thread next summer.

It would also be comforting to have evidence for how the points were attached to the doublet. Were they sewn on, laced through eyelets on the doublet, or laced through tabs? I don't understand that bit about the peplum of the Charles de Bois doublet.

And this belongs in thread III, but do we know whether hosen under armour would have been laced to the braes or to the doublet? Some people find lacing the doublet to the hosen restricting, and it would be hard to loosen the hosen once the armour was on.

Do we have a citation to that Waffen- und Kostümkunde article? I would have to get it through interlibrary loan.

PS. Once again, that Franciscan missal (BNF Latin 757 folio 286r) has something interesting. This scene has two men stoning a saint, and one of them is suffering from a a wardrobe malfunction:



This guy is not in harness, but what were those tabs laced to?