Holding up maille chausses, how did they do it?

[James B.]

Does anyone have good evidence on how maille chausses were suspending from 1350 or earlier? In recent talks we have seen evidence on the foot and of lacing rings for the back but nothing on how a man kept them up.

[Ernst]

There's the passage from the King's Mirror of c. 1250. I'm sure someone will comment on the poor quality of the translation.
THE KING'S MIRROR XXXVIII

The rider himself should be equipped in this wise:
he should wear good soft breeches made of soft and
thoroughly blackened linen cloth, which should reach
up to the belt; outside these, good mail hose which
should come up high enough to be girded on with a
double strap; over these he must have good trousers
made of linen cloth of the sort that I have already
described ; finally, over these he should have good knee-
pieces made of thick iron and rivets hard as steel.

It seems fairly typical of our understanding of linen hosen, mail chausses, and gamboisses cuisses with poleyns. There's always debated over the blackened or blacked linen, or whether the double straps are belts or thongs. There are a few miniatures showing the mail chausses seeming to be shorter than the cloth hosen.

There are two accounts in Guillaume le Breton's Phillipide describing the Battle of Bouvines in 1214 where mail chausses are sewn to the body armor.

However, before the Elect had arrived at the place where the knights were fighting with each other, a boy named Commotus, as if he had been a man of strength and great virtue, ripped the helmet off the count's head and inflicted a large wound on his head. Then he lifted the side of his hauberk, thinking he would strike him in the stomach, but the knife could find no entry as the iron chausses were strongly sown [sic] to the hauberk. While they were thus holding him and were forcing him to get up, he looked around and saw Arnoul of Audenarde and some knights hurriedly coming to help him.
------------
And as he was slow in getting up from the ground, waiting in vain for help and still hoping to escape, a boy [a commoner] named Cornut, one of the servants of the Elect of Senlis, and walking ahead of the latter, a man strong in body, arrives holding a deadly knife in his right hand. He wanted to cut the count's noble parts by plunging the knife in at the place where the body armor is joined to the leggings, but the armor sowed [sic] into the leggings will not separate and open up to the knife, and thus Cornut's hopes are thwarted. However, he circles the count and looks for other ways to reach his goal. Pushing the two whalebones out of the way and soon pulling off the whole of his helmet, he inflicts a large wound upon his unprotected face.

In the case of Commotus, the armor is specifically chausses de fer, mail chausses, and the haubert, hauberk. In Cornut's example, the armor is less specifically defined as cuirass and cuissard.

EDIT:
Though I was earlier working from a French translation, I have found the original Latin text of Guillaume le Breton's Phillipide giving the account of the chausses being sewn to the hauberk in 1214 at Bouvines.
http://archive.org/stream/philippidedeg ... rch/Senlis
Lines 1750 and following gives the account of Cornut, with consuta (sewn together, stiched) describing how the mail chausses (ocreis, boots) are attached to the body armor (thorax but earlier lorica)

Ipsum paecedens Cornutus nomine fortis
Corpore, mortifero horribat qui dextra cutello.
Hic ocreis ubi si jungit lorica, volebat
Immisso comiti vitalia rumpere ferro.
Sed thorax ocreis consuta patere cutello
Indissuta negans Cornuti vota fefellit.
Circuit, atque alias se garcio vertit ad artes.
Cornibus amotis balenae et casside tota
Ingenti faciem nudatam vulnere signal.

Translation via deremilitari:

And as he was slow in getting up from the ground, waiting in vain for help and still hoping to escape, a boy [a commoner] named Cornut, one of the servants of the Elect of Senlis, and walking ahead of the latter, a man strong in body, arrives holding a deadly knife in his right hand. He wanted to cut the count's noble parts by plunging the knife in at the place where the body armor is joined to the leggings, but the armor sowed [sic] into the leggings will not separate and open up to the knife, and thus Cornut's hopes are thwarted. However, he circles the count and looks for other ways to reach his goal. Pushing the two whalebones out of the way and soon pulling off the whole of his helmet, he inflicts a large wound upon his unprotected face.

[James B.]

The Kings Mirror Quote really helps, it is the way I was planning to go. I wonder do you know some effigies or art to look at showing the hose and maille chausses at the top like that?

[Ernst]

Nothing in effigies that I'm aware of, but I'm sure there is limited evidence in manuscript miniatures showing the top edge--usually on a side slit hauberk or downed opponenet. I'll look to see if I can find something specific. There's a lot of evidence for a garter (one of the two belts?) being worn below the knee/above the calf to hold the chausses tight and probably provide some extra support: I think Blair and others refer to it as "reducing the drag". Here's a miniature showing it pretty clearly.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/arthuri ... s229/3631/

[PartsAndTechnical]

The Kings Mirror Quote really helps, it is the way I was planning to go. I wonder do you know some effigies or art to look at showing the hose and maille chausses at the top like that?

Id love to see what you pull off James.

[James B.]

I will get images up when I get a few things finished.

[Ernst]

I'm afraid I don't have much of use on the visual evidence (yet)...

A rather famous image from the Westminster Psalter that seems to show a broad band at the top of the chausses (or mail cuisses, depending on your interpretation):
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/westmin ... xxii/1424/
I thought I remembered an image in the Dyson Perrins Apocalypse, but it turned out to be cloth hosen instead. I guess my brain focused on the gray color...(sigh)
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/dyson-p ... ii-1/5209/
A revealing (though not so much of the top of the mail chausses) view of King Saul taking a dump in the cave:
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/psalter ... m730/5628/
I'm fairly certain there's a view through a side-slit hauberk in the early 14th c. Tickhill Psalter, but I don't have the image saved digitally, and it's not on the few pages the NYPL has online. I'll see if I can make a trip to the library for it.

Our view is generally obscured by cuisses, aketon, hauberk, sometimes coat of plates, and surcoat. Perhaps the best way to interpret the King's Mirror is a simple redundancy of systems. Since most civilian hosen/chausses seem to be held by a single point at the front, the extra weight of the mail might require two ties instead of one. I see no reason to believe the mail chausses weren't shaped in the same general format as the civilian garment. One has to wonder the role of the big rolled waistbands on 13th century braies in supporting these. As civilian fashion becomes more form fitting, it's reasonable to see such bulky drawers disappear, forcing the hosen and chausses to be laced to the doublet, perhaps?

[Mac]

As civilian fashion becomes more form fitting, it's reasonable to see such bulky drawers disappear, forcing the hosen and chausses to be laced to the doublet, perhaps?

I suspect that it is the other way around...... Form fitting fashion and hosen laced to the doublet force the decline of bulky drawers.

Mac

[James B.]

Bulky draws are still seen in the early 15th century but are most certainly on the decline for shorter tighter fitting ones.

[Galleron]

There's the passage from the King's Mirror of c. 1250. I'm sure someone will comment on the poor quality of the translation.
THE KING'S MIRROR XXXVIII

The rider himself should be equipped in this wise:
he should wear good soft breeches made of soft and
thoroughly blackened linen cloth, which should reach
up to the belt; outside these, good mail hose which
should come up high enough to be girded on with a
double strap; over these he must have good trousers
made of linen cloth of the sort that I have already
described ; finally, over these he should have good knee-
pieces made of thick iron and rivets hard as steel.

It seems fairly typical of our understanding of linen hosen, mail chausses, and gamboisses cuisses with poleyns. There's always debated over the blackened or blacked linen, or whether the double straps are belts or thongs. There are a few miniatures showing the mail chausses seeming to be shorter than the cloth hosen.

There are two accounts in Guillaume le Breton's Phillipidos describing the Battle of Bouvines in 1214 where mail chausses are sewn to the body armor.

However, before the Elect had arrived at the place where the knights were fighting with each other, a boy named Commotus, as if he had been a man of strength and great virtue, ripped the helmet off the count's head and inflicted a large wound on his head. Then he lifted the side of his hauberk, thinking he would strike him in the stomach, but the knife could find no entry as the iron chausses were strongly sown [sic] to the hauberk. While they were thus holding him and were forcing him to get up, he looked around and saw Arnoul of Audenarde and some knights hurriedly coming to help him.
------------
And as he was slow in getting up from the ground, waiting in vain for help and still hoping to escape, a boy [a commoner] named Cornut, one of the servants of the Elect of Senlis, and walking ahead of the latter, a man strong in body, arrives holding a deadly knife in his right hand. He wanted to cut the count's noble parts by plunging the knife in at the place where the body armor is joined to the leggings, but the armor sowed [sic] into the leggings will not separate and open up to the knife, and thus Cornut's hopes are thwarted. However, he circles the count and looks for other ways to reach his goal. Pushing the two whalebones out of the way and soon pulling off the whole of his helmet, he inflicts a large wound upon his unprotected face.

In the case of Commotus, the armor is specifically chausses de fer, mail chausses, and the haubert, hauberk. In Cornut's example, the armor is less specifically defined as cuirass and cuissard.

Perhaps the "double strap" is a girdle twice the normal width for holding up hose.

[Baron Eirik]

I supposed 'specialized body piercings' isn't the right answer

[Paladin74]

So, if I read that correctly- the trousers go over the top of the mail chausses, which in turn sit over top of the breeches?

[Ernst]

I think it's gamboissed cuisses over the mail chausses over linen hosen.

[Steve S.]

Here is how I did mine:

http://forth-armoury.com/temp/mail1.jpg
http://forth-armoury.com/temp/mail2.jpg
http://forth-armoury.com/temp/mail3.jpg
http://forth-armoury.com/temp/mail4.jpg

In this incarnation, I created a loop of leather around the top of the leg opening. Through this I ran a heavy duty leather thong.

In these pictures, this thong attaches to a "pourpoint" or "arming vest" or whatever you want to call it.

I still find the pointing of "leg stuff" to be one of the mysteries of medieval clothing I am not fully comfortable with.

I find pointing anything to the braies to be very uncomfortable, unless you put a wide leather belt inside the braies to hold them up. Otherwise pointing even hose to them in a snug fashion makes the braies dig into your flesh painfully.

Hanging maille chausses from braies is an impossibility. At one time, for a 13th-century impression, I made a 2" wide belt to point the braise to. This worked a little better, but it still cut into me, especially the belt buckle. Once I punched some holes in a weightlifting belt and used that to support the chausses, and that was the most tolerable.

The "pourpoint" is by far the most comfortable, but it is still an extraordinary amount of stress on a single point.

I am still toying with the idea I have had for many years, as others, that maille garments may have been lined. Perhaps everything we see as maille was really lined with leather. Maybe this allowed for better hanging possibilities.

Steve

[Ernst]

The waist rolls on braies could be significant, and should not cut into the flesh in the way that a 2" leather belt does.

[Mlanteigne]

Not to hijack the thread, but were there such a thing as a "half" chause, where the front of the leg was covered by plate, the rear by a half legging of mail? Specifically for the mid-late 14th C?

[Steve S.]

The waist rolls on braies could be significant, and should not cut into the flesh in the way that a 2" leather belt does.

I tried it. I made the braise gigantic. They came all the way up to my armpits. Then I would tie them and roll them down to my hips. It was tolerable, though still painful, for simple hose, but no way for chausses.

I have thought that the problem was that I am fat - big thighs make for very conical legs that naturally want to push off hose and chausses, so instead of just having to deal with supporting the weight of the garment, they must also contend with the force of being actively "squirted off". But others have suggested that there were fat people in period, too, so maybe that's not it.

I've just never had much luck with single-point hose. I have to tie them insanely tight to keep them from drooping, which results in digging in and heaven help you if you kneel or otherwise do exertions.

Steve

[James B.]

The waist rolls on braies could be significant, and should not cut into the flesh in the way that a 2" leather belt does.

Who says there is not a belt on under that roll?

Not to hijack the thread, but were there such a thing as a "half" chause, where the front of the leg was covered by plate, the rear by a half legging of mail? Specifically for the mid-late 14th C?

Historical writings suggest its a maille chausse with a shynbold on top of it vs. half and half

[Steve S.]

Who says there is not a belt on under that roll?

It's possible, though I don't think it could be very wide if it is an actual "belt".

If it was wide, then I would think it would get very difficult to "roll" (flip end over end) down your torso.

It would be interesting to try.

Steve

[James B.]

Roll down to the belt is my thought.

[Mac]

Why do folks think that these early 14th C drawers were "rolled" at the top? Is assume that we are seeing a simple casing with a belt inside. Is there some piece of evidence that I am missing?

Mac

[RandallMoffett]

MAC,

I agree. I tend to think of it the same way but I can see it the other way rolled as well... just seems easier and to work better as casing.

James,

I am starting on some full chausses as well soon (once my rivet plier arrive). I am glad to see all these ideas. Gives me something to think about.

RPM

[James B.]

Mac I agree with you on 14c braies a casing is more likely the case. Here is an early 15thc image showing a casing with a belt in it:

[Steve S.]

Why do folks think that these early 14th C drawers were "rolled" at the top? Is assume that we are seeing a simple casing with a belt inside. Is there some piece of evidence that I am missing?

Some of the images (and I'm thinking pre-14th century) have an awful big bundle to seem to be just a belt casing. I think it still is a belt casing, but that it is rolled down.

There are two reasons I can think of to do this.

First, it pads the belt, or rope, or cord, or whatever it is in there that is tight/buckled tight.

Secondly, they had no elastic. By starting with it tied or buckled on, and then rolling it down the body, it would become a progressively tighter fit.

Steve

[Ernst]

To clarify, the Mac Bible image is mid 13th rather than early 14th century. There's this mid (1360-1370) 14th century pic of the thief's undies at the Crucifixion:
http://tethys.imareal.sbg.ac.at/realonl ... 000716.JPG
While that certainly looks like a belt in a tube (with two access openings per side for hosen), I'm not at all certain that was the practice a century earlier. The Mac Bible examples look much bulkier at the waist, and much more draped throughout the garment. The 14th century examples seem worn over the hips rather than at the natural waist-naval area as well.

[Mac]

To clarify, the Mac Bible image is mid 13th rather than early 14th century. There's this mid (1360-1370) 14th century pic of the thief's undies at the Crucifixion:
http://tethys.imareal.sbg.ac.at/realonl ... 000716.JPG
While that certainly looks like a belt in a tube (with two access openings per side for hosen), I'm not at all certain that was the practice a century earlier. The Mac Bible examples look much bulkier at the waist, and much more draped throughout the garment. The 14th century examples seem worn over the hips rather than at the natural waist-naval area as well.

Ernst,

My bad. I know perfectly well that the Maciejowski Bible is earlier than the 14th C. I guess my head was clouded with images of the "Planet 14C" guys wearing that sort of underwear with cote hardies.

I had not seen this one before. It is difficult to interpret it as anything other than a belt in a casing.

The thieves on the crosses are always good for underwear research, but you do have to consider whether the artist has depicted them in up to date stuff. I think that more often than not, they are shown wearing braes that are a generation or so out of date. Now, that said, I have no trouble believing that a low life thief might wear those drawers in the third quarter of the 14th C. Indeed, that style probably did not really disappear completely until the last farmer got tired of patching them in the first quarter of the 15thC.

Mac

[Mac]

Why do folks think that these early 14th C drawers were "rolled" at the top? Is assume that we are seeing a simple casing with a belt inside. Is there some piece of evidence that I am missing?

Some of the images (and I'm thinking pre-14th century) have an awful big bundle to seem to be just a belt casing. I think it still is a belt casing, but that it is rolled down.

There are two reasons I can think of to do this.

First, it pads the belt, or rope, or cord, or whatever it is in there that is tight/buckled tight.

Secondly, they had no elastic. By starting with it tied or buckled on, and then rolling it down the body, it would become a progressively tighter fit.

Steve

Steve,

I have not seen anything that could not be reproduced without recourse to rolling. I think that we are just seeing a huge amount of fabric gathered at the waist.

Do you have a particular image that you can post?

The other thing that bothers me is this. If you roll the fabric around your belt, you can no longer get to the buckle to adjust it.

Mac

[Steve S.]

Do you have a particular image that you can post?

Just Mac bible stuff, like Ernst posted above.

Steve

[Mac]

Steve,

We can see here that when the braes are let down, the waist still looks the same. This is what we would expect if it were a casing with a belt inside.



Mac

[Ernst]

One problem is that the earlier iconography of the Crucifixion rarely shows the two thieves, so we're relying on images of stripped soldiers, and so forth. Even Joshua's hanging of the five kings generally shows the kings in long robes.

One of the problems with the King's Mirror text is that it doesn't specify the height of the mail chausses in the way it does for the "blackened" linen hosen. They could be "knee highs", or they could (more likely) come up to the crotch.

If Mac's interpretation is correct, we're simply looking at a lot of gathers in a one-size-fits-all garment good for waistbands from 28"- 48". Since there is no evidence in the 13th century for pointing hosen to a doublet, it follows that the chausses would either be tied or belted directly to the leg without vertical support, or be attached to the braies belt.

Another Mac Bible example:

[Klaus the Red]

I've found that rolling down the waistband of long braes (with a drawstring, haven't tried it with a belt) does three things. First, as pointed out, it tightens the chausses. Second, if you roll the front down farther than the back, it brings the drawstring down below the hip bones and under the belly, where it seems to ride more comfortably (YMMV). Third, it gathers up the crotch material and provides a little more restraint for your swingin' bits. I'm a jockey man, not a boxer man.

Klaus

[Klaus the Red]

We can see here that when the braes are let down, the waist still looks the same. This is what we would expect if it were a casing with a belt inside.

Mac, I generally don't unroll my waistband to use the john, I just untie the drawstring and slide the rolled assembly down en masse, then pull it back up and re-tie in the same position. The visual effect is the same as in the picture.

[Steve S.]

That is a neat photo, Mac, I always assumed we were looking at the king's junk. It really is the braies casing.

Mac, I generally don't unroll my waistband to use the john, I just untie the drawstring and slide the rolled assembly down en masse, then pull it back up and re-tie in the same position.

But then why roll it to begin with? If you can just tie it and achieve the same tension/support.

The other thing I never liked about the "rolling" thing is it makes a big fluffy tube around the body that is unflattering to the clothing. It's like a bustle or something.

I think the idea of a belt in the underwear goes a long way to solving the suspension problems.

I think I recall hearing that the Wisby graves often had two buckles in the hip region? Perhaps one for the braies and one for the clothes?

Steve

[Ernst]

To revive this old thread, I have found the original Latin text of Guillaume le Breton's Phillipide giving the account of the chausses being sewn to the hauberk in 1214 at Bouvines.
http://archive.org/stream/philippidedeg ... rch/Senlis
Lines 1750 and following gives the account of Cornut, with consuta (sewn together, stiched) describing how the mail chausses (ocreis, boots) are attached to the body armor (thorax but earlier lorica)

Ipsum paecedens Cornutus nomine fortis
Corpore, mortifero horribat qui dextra cutello.
Hic ocreis ubi si jungit lorica, volebat
Immisso comiti vitalia rumpere ferro.
Sed thorax ocreis consuta patere cutello
Indissuta negans Cornuti vota fefellit.
Circuit, atque alias se garcio vertit ad artes.
Cornibus amotis balenae et casside tota
Ingenti faciem nudatam vulnere signal.

Translation via deremilitari:

And as he was slow in getting up from the ground, waiting in vain for help and still hoping to escape, a boy [a commoner] named Cornut, one of the servants of the Elect of Senlis, and walking ahead of the latter, a man strong in body, arrives holding a deadly knife in his right hand. He wanted to cut the count's noble parts by plunging the knife in at the place where the body armor is joined to the leggings, but the armor sowed [sic] into the leggings will not separate and open up to the knife, and thus Cornut's hopes are thwarted. However, he circles the count and looks for other ways to reach his goal. Pushing the two whalebones out of the way and soon pulling off the whole of his helmet, he inflicts a large wound upon his unprotected face.

[Steve S.]

I wonder in what manner the chausses were "sewn" to the hauberk?

As in knitted with iron rings? Was this a permanent attachment?

If so, how would you don the armour? The hauberk must have a slit down the front or back to allow the wearer to get in and out of the armour, like a butterfly escaping its chrysalis.

Or would it be something laced on as part of donning it?

Perhaps, if the hauberk was not lined (or even if it was, if there were holes in the lining) perhaps cords could be run from the chausses through the maille and tied off on the outside?

Steve