The Armour Archive

That is an interesting thought, Randall. I think that there is probably a very strong case to be made here, that heavier GHs were worn alone and lighter ones used as "visors." It certainly fits the info we have. The final nail in the coffin, I think, would be to find evidence of whether or not GHs were worn early on with helms underneath. I have long suspected that the answer is no. If you don't take up the torch Randall and write the paper that is certainly buried under all of this info, I think I may have to. My gears are turning already...

What is the evidence that these thick GHs were worn on chains?

Is there a geographical distinction between GH usage and visored bascinet usage, or chronological trends of the latter replacing the former?

Just thoughts, to get them down "on paper," so to speak. If you don't write this, seriously, I think I need to.

Eltz,

I was waiting on a few other peoples projects to see where I went on a few things. I think a transitional project is indeed in order.

So far I am looking at the general arrival of a few bits of rigid armour but especially on pairs of plates.

This great helm thing was something I have kicked around since I saw the RA great helm and realized it was much thinner than many of the thicknesses of the Dargen and other earlier great helm.

I suspect it may indeed be right that they largely wore nothing but the padded and mail coif under these but there are a few bits of artwork that keep me from feeling it was the only system.

If you want to tackle great helms you have my blessing by all means! If not let me know and I'll place it in my to do things. I made a list of anticipated projects the other day when I was waiting for a student to come to my office and it was truly horrifying and exciting all at the same time.

I really need a gig that pays something toward research....

RPM

Eltz-Kempenich wrote:What is the evidence that these thick GHs were worn on chains?

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/3806/3362/

See the loose toggle below his L wrist? It goes in the cross on the cheek.

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/838/3011/

http://www.themcs.org/armour/knights/Ge ... 0%2014.JPG

http://www.themcs.org/armour/knights/Ge ... 9%2036.JPG

Thanks Alcyoneus. I understand how the chains work, but I am wondering if there is a correlation between the thickness of the GHs and if they were worn on chains. For example, early uses of GHs do not have chains (at least in images), which suggests that they were not intended to be removed like later examples worn over bascinets and cervelliers. These earlier examples seemingly run thicker as well. Later on, we see chains and the helms get thinner. Then, it would be useful to compare the use of GHs to visored bascinets. The images you share will be useful, certainly, but I need info on extant pieces.

Wasn't there a website or maybe an archive thread that documented all of the extant great helms? Anyone have any clue?

And thanks, Randall, I'll be in touch via e-mail soon to discuss the project with you. I see no reason we couldn't work together on it, especially if you have done some initial research on it.

Baron Alcyoneus wrote:

Eltz-Kempenich wrote:What is the evidence that these thick GHs were worn on chains?

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/3806/3362/

See the loose toggle below his L wrist? It goes in the cross on the cheek.

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/838/3011/

http://www.themcs.org/armour/knights/Ge ... 0%2014.JPG

http://www.themcs.org/armour/knights/Ge ... 9%2036.JPG

One end of the chain is toggled through the cross shape in the great helm, but how was the other end secured? Was the chain run through holes in the CoP and the other end secured to the sword?

You might want to Google or check the search function for "Hirschstein".
http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion52/presse/1.jpg
http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion ... 9656_c.jpg

The figure to the left in this tournament scene might be of help.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b5 ... /f115.item

Ernst wrote:You might want to Google or check the search function for "Hirschstein".
http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion52/presse/1.jpg
http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion ... 9656_c.jpg

Excellent response Ernst, thanks!

One end of the chain is toggled through the cross shape in the great helm, but how was the other end secured? Was the chain run through holes in the CoP and the other end secured to the sword?[/quote]



I attatched mine with mounts based on a find the MoL Dress Accessories book. Number 951(page 187) is a domed sexfoil mount with "a thin strip of sheeting is looped through the hole and around a wire ring."

I made larger cinqfoil mounts with what is basicly a large cotter pin made of flattened 1/8" brass rod. The rod comes through a hole in one of the chest plates,through my decorative mount, loops around a link of chain and goes back into the coat of plates, where the ends are bent out over the plate, which acts as a large washer.

I have two of these on my CoP. I've been using one to attatch to my great helm(worn over a bascinet), and the other will eventually attacth to a dagger.

I WILL THIS THREAD TO LIFE!!!



So I have a newly acquired Pembridge, that fits perfectly over my bascinet. I have a few people telling my that great helms were not worn over full bascinets but instead over the cervelierre.
From what I could find it looks like there may have been a short period where they were?

Can anybody corroborate this with me?

Just show them this (top left)
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4365/16814/

You sir... rock.

MJ,

That is crazy. You have several examples of bascinets under great helms and other similar helmets.

http://theluttrells.homestead.com/LordGL.html

I think the issue is people want it to be an all or nothing thing when very few things then were.

RPM