The Armour Archive

I recently got this book, titled The Peel Affinity from the La Belle Compagnie living history group. The book is a pictorial "year in the life" of a medieval 14th century English manor. It appears to be superbly executed and researched, and there is one curiosity that makes me question my current 14th century impression: not once is anyone, English, German, French or other depicted wearing a liner beneath their aventail. Is this something that's out of the time period for the book, which depicts the year 1381, or were they omitted for some other reasons? I realize that learning the intentions of the authors here is unlikely, but maybe there is some knowledge I lack that makes this curiosity seem logical. Just how common were fabric aventail liners in the late 14th century? It's very hard to tell from effigies.

Why would you line an aventail? What would be the purpose?

Ernst, are you just following me around replying to all my posts? LoL!

To be honest I'm not completely sure why, but I thought it was done historically for protection. Not 100% of the time, but at least some of the time. The fact that such a well researched group chose not to include any makes me wonder though.

EDIT: It occurred to me that my terminology might be incorrect, leading to misinterpretation. What I mean by "liner" is any fabric, quilted or padded or not, that "lines" the interior of the aventail, like wearing a maille aventail over a padded one, for instance.

It's just that your posting topics which are of interest to me? Or that I've got too much time on my hands... The boards seem rather slow over the last week or so.

Would the late 14th century warrior be trying to protect the pourpoint beneath from rust stains? Perhaps James B. or another member of La Belle will comment.

It's been remarked that an unlined camail drapes differently from 99% of the effigies and slabs with camails depicted. They have a concave-conical shape. Unlined camails have a silhouette more like a capital L either side: straight down, then straight out. Among the 1% that are exceptions is good old Walter von Hohenklingen (+1376) -- who just may be sporting a standard-of-mail whose dags peep out under his quilted tippet and not a camail. That tippet shows the capital-L angled silhouette.

But put a liner in there, most probably as an extension of the bascinet-stuffynge out from beneath the helmet, and suddenly the camail looks exactly like what you see in funeral brasses and effigies.

Scott,

I do not know why they do not but I would. We have a fair amount of evidence of this with illustrations of knights falling off horses and the aventail is clearly lined in many of these.

The purpose I would guess is twofold. One protection of one of the most vital parts of your body- your throat and two it keeps the mail from catching on everything under it when you turn your head and such. I suspect most mail was lined or worn over something through much if not all of history but that is a guess.... this one we have proof on though. I could not find the image but will take a second look when I have some time. It shows a knight falling from a horse and his aventail is flipped up over his face and it is lined with some blue or green material I think. I would not say this is enough to say it was always done by any stretch but it is enough to say it was done and I suspect by the way effigies aventails look fairly often.

RPM

RandallMoffett wrote:The purpose I would guess is twofold. One protection of one of the most vital parts of your body- your throat and two it keeps the mail from catching on everything under it when you turn your head and such.

The throat would already be well protected with a collar on the mail haubergeon, presumably over an aketon. A pizane or standard might have gone over that, but the aventail suspended from the bascinet buys a little space besides a second (or third) layer of mail. Since the rivet heads are on the outside, the mail isn't likely to catch on much of anything in my view, unless there are some buckles over the shoulder.

Looking at effigies from this period in time, the aventail is pretty much always drawn up over the chin, just under the lips and 'stach. More often than not, its also tightly fitted to the chin, dipping under the jaw before flaring out as it descends. I dunno about you, but I like not having my beard caught in mail. And for the clean-shaven chins out there, it'd be nice to not put your face into a cheese grater.

Here's a somewhat later example of such a liner: http://manuscriptminiatures.com/3993/9967/

Keegan,
That makes sense. Morso than trying to protect the underlying body armor.

I cannot speak to why something was or was not done in the The Peel Affinity; I am in the book in a few shots but I was not part of the group at that time.

However no one at this time lines their aventail or coif. I don't think I would call it a universal practice. Neither is tailoring the chin to fit close to the neck which we have extant examples of.

My coif fits tight to my face via tailoring not by a draw string, we again have examples of both in museums.

Galfrid atte grene wrote:Here's a somewhat later example of such a liner: http://manuscriptminiatures.com/3993/9967/

Which figure in particular are you looking at in that manuscript illustration?

I've lined my aventail and I love it. It makes my helmet easier to put on and off, keeps the aventail from catching on my breastplate/surcote/arming cote, and just looks right. I thought about making it a padded lining, but thought that would be overkill for SCA combat.

Caius705 wrote:

Galfrid atte grene wrote:Here's a somewhat later example of such a liner: http://manuscriptminiatures.com/3993/9967/

Which figure in particular are you looking at in that manuscript illustration?

The bottom right guy with no helmet, you see the liner on the over turned helmet on the ground

Ah, now I see it.

James B. wrote:I cannot speak to why something was or was not done in the The Peel Affinity; I am in the book in a few shots but I was not part of the group at that time.

However no one at this time lines their aventail or coif. I don't think I would call it a universal practice. Neither is tailoring the chin to fit close to the neck which we have extant examples of.

My coif fits tight to my face via tailoring not by a draw string, we again have examples of both in museums.

There is strong visual evidence in art, that by the late 14th century certainly, a lined aventail is most likely the norm. You don't get the look of the effigies with unlined draped mail, and given facial hair is very normal in this time period, multiple layers of unlined mail near the face seems to be an unreasonable assumption.

You don't see many reenactors do it, not because it is somehow accurate to not do it, but it is more difficult, and more expensive, or time consuming to make a well made liner for the aventail. Then again, nobody is trying to kill them, and they don't have to be fully armed for as long a stretch as their historical counterparts.

I've always considered unlined aventails to be a reenactorism for 14th century reenactors, like the 'cowboy' look of sleeveless doublets popular in 15th century reenactment in the 1990's (taken entirely outside of the context of such things being documented specifically as underwear for jacks in a solitary context, and in some cases suspension systems for leg harness)

Believe me that reenactors don't do it not because they don't need it, but simply because they don't know about its existence. But I live in Italy, so my situation is a little bit different than the rest of Europe (unfortunately).

Ernst,

Many assumptions in your post that you are asserting are common, I'd not be so sure are the most common. First that it was normal for mail hauberks to have a collar.... that may have been done at times but I am not sure any of the hauberks that remain from the 14th I have seen in person have anything like that so I'd be wary to think this was the more common set up. The Pizane fits into this as well. Optional as far as I can tell as is the collar on the aketons. So before all your optional mail and padding you have one layer of mail and perhaps 0 of padding with it if unlined/padded. But you are looking at this wrong. This likely was one of layer that could be combined with any of the layers you mentioned but I suspect it is likely one of the more common systems and first ones to be added.

But it is your throat. And one of the most under threat on your body so yes I assume it could be very, very well defended. Look at examples in the 15th. Mail collar and bevor that is lined/padded or an armet with mail collar and a mail aventail and/or wrapper. So the 14th was no different except in the mixing of items for defense. There is even the theory that the square patch in 11th and 12th century art is the idea of added throat protection because of the danger.

And yes there are lots of things to catch on the shoulder. lacing, buckles, the bits of other armour tops. Unlike many repro breastplates made where the back and breast overlap and attach most medieval examples I have seen to not so you have armour edges up there as well. But buckles and lacing were my main worries. I have felt the bows on my lacing caught in the links of mail before and it is not so cool.

And as I mentioned and Galfrid posted there is solid evidence from it as well so the answer is more or less found. We could go over how common but since the methods mentioned above likely have even less support than this one it'd be a hard one to do.... as well if art really is a decent indicator of this.

RPM

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos- ... 3275_n.jpg here's a friend's aventail with liner. it lays perfectly

Here's a guy with a padded aventail (centre, raising both arms to deliver a hammer-blow)
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?tags=%22flat%22
As you can see his aventail looks exactly the same as the other's. We are just lucky that the painter decided to bless us with a detail vital to us but that I imagine was fairly common and boring to a medieval man.
So how can we know that even in the '30s/'40s they weren't used? I agree that the effigies with their detail show us that even the the second quarter of the XIVth century padded liners began to be used under the maille ones.

The question I have then is what should the construction be and how should it be worn? Just light padding or thicker like a gambeson?

I suggest a double layer of fustian or light weight canvas lining for baton fighting.

I fight with rebated steel weapons, mostly with the point. The first liner I made had two layers of baby quilt batting in the front. It was unmanageable and hot. Once I reduced it to a single layer of batting the aventail drapes well and still wards off ferocious thrusts. If I were still fighting with batons, it would be overkill. A liner is the way to go.

The baby-quilt batting may have been retaining heat that tow might not...

Does it attach to a coif or is it attached the the mail itself?

Caius,

I'm not sure there is an extant answer for that. I've personally seen people do it in a couple different fashions. Some make the helmet liner and aventail liner all in one piece. However, that method can sometimes result in too thick of a liner for the aventail. Others make the helmet liner, sew that into the helmet, then make a separate, thinner liner for the aventail, and sew it to the mail itself. Personal opinion, I like the second method, both for the difference in thickness that can be more easily achieved and in the fact that the modular construction is easier to pattern and, if need be, replace. A helmet liner would need replacing more often than the aventail liner, for instance, because of the excessive sweat it absorbs.

chef de chambre wrote:You don't see many reenactors do it, not because it is somehow accurate to not do it, but it is more difficult, and more expensive, or time consuming to make a well made liner for the aventail.

I agree; were I using a helmet with an aventail I would line it. I think currently La Belle as a unit only has one man with an aventail on a helmet and he is still tailoring the maille to taste.

Keegan Ingrassia wrote:Caius,

I'm not sure there is an extant answer for that. I've personally seen people do it in a couple different fashions. Some make the helmet liner and aventail liner all in one piece. However, that method can sometimes result in too thick of a liner for the aventail. Others make the helmet liner, sew that into the helmet, then make a separate, thinner liner for the aventail, and sew it to the mail itself. Personal opinion, I like the second method, both for the difference in thickness that can be more easily achieved and in the fact that the modular construction is easier to pattern and, if need be, replace. A helmet liner would need replacing more often than the aventail liner, for instance, because of the excessive sweat it absorbs.

We have one extant example I have seen images off, the upper and lower are one pieces but its 4 sections going around the head. I believe the thicknesses vary in the image, the collar looks less padded than the top but still fairly padded. To reduce soiling the liners you could simply wear a coif which can be seen in historical art. Plus I do not think they cared much about replacing such items they were likely disposable to them, speaking from a historical perspective.

chef de chambre wrote:The baby-quilt batting may have been retaining heat that tow might not...

Some pre-done quilting materials have glue in them which makes them hotter than raw cotton or other forms of tow for sure.

Caius705 wrote:Does it attach to a coif or is it attached the the mail itself?

I would stitch the maille down to the liner were I to make one. I planned to do just that when I started a full liner for my SCA helmet a few years ago but have not picked that project back up for a while.

Here's another: http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4121/8436/
The lines of quilting are visible.

@ Chef - Yeah this thin 100% cotton was the best I could get at the time. Its really open stuff not the felt like stuff most quilters use. At the time, linen tow was Unobtainium except in huge quantities. This rattan batting many people are tinkering with is looking good for the next try.

@ Caius - My liners are two piece for helmet and aventail. The pattern was drawn from a ducal effigy at Dijon. The aventail liner is basted to the mail at top and bottom and with a few lines down, maybe a dozen all the way around? It was an experiment that seems to have worked for a few years now. I don't fight in harness every week though. Sometimes not for a couple months at a time... No where near the abuse weekly practice puts on kit.

However I don't get mail scrapes every fight like I used to. In fact, it has proven very difficult to notice anything but the best landed thrusts on my throat. I like it.

I swear by wool for my helmet padding. People look at my funny when I say that, but I find it to be cooler. The padding is, of course, wrapped in linen.

Wool breathes, and wool wicks sweat/water. Once it gets wet, it begins to cool - it is why they used to have wool covers on canteens in the 19th century US Army.

I have seen some aventails that look tied along the bottom and I wonder if these are not to attach the liner to the aventail.

Galfrid,

That is it sir! That was the one I had in mind when I replied. thank you.

Kel,

My experience as well. I will never go back to unlined aventails.

There's another one. IIRC French, first decade of the XVth century.
This miniature is on the M&M site, but I'm too lazy to look for it again =).
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/543/bcyy.jpg/

PM. watching it closer, I noticed the high collar the female figure (and others) is wearing. Interesting.

RandallMoffett wrote:I have seen some aventails that look tied along the bottom and I wonder if these are not to attach the liner to the aventail.

Galfrid,

That is it sir! That was the one I had in mind when I replied. thank you.

Kel,

My experience as well. I will never go back to unlined aventails.

Yup, the one that springs right to my mind is the wooden St. George, once a part of a retable in the museum of fine arts in Dijon. I think that was 1390's.

Here's two sculptures with points on the aventail (incl. the one chef mentioned):

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/1812/2946/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/1367/1181/

Gustovic wrote:There's another one. IIRC French, first decade of the XVth century.
This miniature is on the M&M site, but I'm too lazy to look for it again =).
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/543/bcyy.jpg/

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4121/8420/

Although this is a great bascinet rather than the classic form, I think you will find this illuminating if you haven't already seen it , because the level of detail is staggering.

http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... ining.html