To wear a hauberk under plate or not, that is the question..

[Ernst]

Signo, regarding the musekins, see this:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=163323
To aid that discussion, I'll cut and paste your post there.

Bertus Brokamp has already given the Limburg Chronicle reference. Since the English inventories list them as mail, it's possible that the musekins are for the elbow, and the gussest for under the arm. It's also possible that they are mail "vambraces". I don't see how they could be spaulders.

[Ernst]

To return to Randall's original question, and cross-posted from the "musekins" thread, it seems that the odds of wearing a haubergeon under a coat of plates vs. mail sleeves and paunces (pans) are about 50/50 in the Count of Hainault's 1357 inventory.

http://www.archive.org/stream/annalesvo ... g_djvu.txt

Premiers, ij paires de plattes de wière, s'en sont les unes couviertes d'un drap d'or et les autres d'un bleu velluiel à j escut des armez Monsigneur le conte Willaume.
Item , ij paires de plattes à jouster, de coy li une est couvierte d'un noir velluiel et l'autre d'un bleu.
Item , une paire de plattes à jouster qui sont couviertes d'un drap d'or et furent Monsigneur Ânsiaul de Sars.
Item , une paire de plattes à jouster.
Item , ij paires de plattes de wière des armes de Haynnau.
Item, vij paires de plattes de le vièse manière.
Item , une paire de plattes de rouge velluiel à ij kainnes d'argent et j billet ' d'argent.
Item , une paire de grandes plattes couviertes d'une rouge torse.
Item , viij haubrigons et j de déliet fier.
Item', vi pans, s'en y a j de jaserant.
Item, viij paires de manches, s'en sont les ij paires de jaserant et ij autres paires de déliet fier.
Item , ix barbières , s'en sont les iij de jaserant. Item, ij collerettes de fort fier, et une de déliet fier.
Item, iiij paires de kauchons de v^ière, s'en est une paire dorée.
Item , une paire de kauchons de tournoy et j despareil.
Item, une paire de longhes kauces de déliet fier de maille.
Item , une paire de plus gros fier de celi manière et unekauche despareille.
Item, une coiffe de le vièse manière, à fleur de lis de laiton.
Item , ij paires de musekins de jaserant.
Item , iiij paires d'autres fier et une piécette de déliet fier.

Our collaborative best translation to date:

First, 2 pairs of plates of war, of which one covered with cloth of gold and the other of a blue velvet. 1 shield with the arms of Lord, the Count William.
Item, 2 pairs of plates for jousting (de coy li) one is covered with black velvet and the other one blue.
Item, a pair of plates for jousting which are covered with cloth of gold and were Lord Ansiaul of Sars'.
Item, one pair of plates for the joust.
Item, 2 pair of plates of war with the arms of Hainault.
Item, 7 pair of plates of the old style.
Item, one pair of plates of red velvet to 2 (kainnes) of silver and 1 billet of silver.
Item, a pair of large plates covered with a red torse.
Item, 8 haubergeons and one of delicate iron (small rings).
Item, 6 paunces, of which one is of jaserant.
Item, 8 pairs of sleeves, of which 2 pairs are of jaserant, and 2 other pairs of delicate iron (small rings).
Item, 9 aventails out of them 3 of jaserant.
Item, 2 collars of strong iron and one of delicate iron (small rings).
Item, 3 pair of (kauchons=chaussons?) of war , therein is one golden pair.
Item, one pair of chaussons for the tourney and one of the same.
Item, one pair of long chausses of delicate iron (small rings) of mail.
Item, a pair of larger iron (big rings) of that manner and one chausse of the same.
Item, a coif of the old style with fleur-de-lis of latten.
Item, 2 musekins of jaserant.
Item, 4 pair of others-iron and a small piece of delicate iron (small rings).

[RandallMoffett]

I am counting more pairs of plates than haubergeons and mail bits together in this as well which means we have a few unknowns.... that said there are more haubergeons than pauces which would seem to me something like still favoring haubergeons if this can be used as a gauge... that said I am not sure if we can use this for percentages seeing how we do not know how they are used besides on a person.

What is interesting is how different this is from the Black Prince's later inventory....

March of 1358 and there is not a single mentions of pisans or pauces.

Here is the total
Complete suits of mail-7
Complete suits of steel mail-1
Pair of Plates-14
Haubergeon-15
Haubergeon of steel-1
Pair’s of Plate Gauntlets- 18
Kettle Helmets- 6
Bascinets-15 (1 with umbril, 2 with nasals, 4 which have visors, 5 with ventails)
Breastplate-1

He has a smaller inventory from 1359 that includes one pisan and one paunce.... interestingly to the same guy but if we used this as an indicator the stack would be something like 95+/100 for hauberks of habergeons.

That said this is clearly incomplete as it is stuff he is outfitting men with but the lack of pisans and pauces is interesting.

It states something else interesting.... 'a pair of “paunz" '.... interesting but still confusing.

RPM

[Ernst]

Richardson's thesis is somewhat frustrating in its choice of details. He goes to lengths giving the prices for various mail shirts (lorica), and gives the price for one pair of mail sleeves, but doesn't provide the price for paunces. It would be interesting to see the percentage of savings for going with pairs of sleeves and paunces vs. a haubergeon.

[RandallMoffett]

Ernst,

I will ask him if he has the rolls in digital format and see if I cannot get some more info.

RPM

[Ernst]

Thanks Randall. I looked at Storey's thesis for pricing, but he doesn't mention sleeves, paunces (pans), or musekins at all.

[Ernst]

I am counting more pairs of plates than haubergeons and mail bits together in this as well which means we have a few unknowns.... that said there are more haubergeons than pauces which would seem to me something like still favoring haubergeons if this can be used as a gauge... that said I am not sure if we can use this for percentages seeing how we do not know how they are used besides on a person.

What is interesting is how different this is from the Black Prince's later inventory....

March of 1358 and there is not a single mentions of pisans or pauces.

Here is the total
Complete suits of mail-7
Complete suits of steel mail-1
Pair of Plates-14
Haubergeon-15
Haubergeon of steel-1
Pair’s of Plate Gauntlets- 18
Kettle Helmets- 6
Bascinets-15 (1 with umbril, 2 with nasals, 4 which have visors, 5 with ventails)
Breastplate-1

He has a smaller inventory from 1359 that includes one pisan and one paunce.... interestingly to the same guy but if we used this as an indicator the stack would be something like 95+/100 for hauberks of habergeons.

That said this is clearly incomplete as it is stuff he is outfitting men with but the lack of pisans and pauces is interesting.

It states something else interesting.... 'a pair of “paunz" '.... interesting but still confusing.

RPM

I have to wonder if the pisanes and paunces aren't understood to be included in the "Complete suits of mail". Consider this quote from Richardson:

Other knights and ship’s masters
were given a full set of armour, as noted above under mail. These sets are called
‘complete armours’ (hernesia integra) in Mildenhall’s account, such a complete
armour comprising a helm, bacinet and aventail, pisane, pairs of plates, rerebraces,
vambraces, mail sleeves and paunces. This shows that although the components of
these complete armours were supplied independently, they were considered to form
sets on issue, evidence at odds with the conventional idea that the complete armour
did not evolve until the early fifteenth century.

The "pair of 'paunz'" is certainly the same thing., as paunces and sleeves are both listed as pairs. The Dutch inventory shows "pans", so I am coming to believe that "paunces" derivation is from panzer rather than from paunch or belly. I wonder if they are "pairs" because the standard practice is to issue them with a set of sleeves?

[RandallMoffett]

I have only been able to speak withy Dr. Storey once sadly so I cannot say for sure I'll find more on that side. I'll call Thom up and see what further info he may have.

RPM

[Klaus the Red]

Noting that "pair" in the medieval context does not translate literally to the modern connotation of two, but more generally means a group or a set, as in a "pair of plates"... if sleeves are listed separately, and a mail skirt/fauld is a single item, what could a "pair of paunces" possibly be?

[Ernst]

Same as for a "pair of plates" being a single coat of plates, or a pair of pants.

Perhaps the paunces are made in two halves, rather than a solid skirt with a slit?

[Caius705]

Same as for a "pair of plates" being a single coat of plates, or a pair of pants.

Perhaps the paunces are made in two halves, rather than a solid skirt with a slit?

To me, a pair of plates sounds like a breast and back plate, but I'm not 100% when this is, so backplates may not have been common yet. My $.02, I'll leave it to the knowledgable now

[RandallMoffett]

Caius,

the pair in pair of plates is pair as in latin par, meaning something in a grouping that is alike or similar. There could be two or ten as long as they are equal or like each other. I tend to think it simply means garment of many plates.

RPM

[Caius705]

Caius,

the pair in pair of plates is pair as in latin par, meaning something in a grouping that is alike or similar. There could be two or ten as long as they are equal or like each other. I tend to think it simply means garment of many plates.

RPM

Once again the day is saved. http://xkcd.com/1010/

[RandallMoffett]

At least we are not going to drown regarding the latin word par....

RPM

[Hugeus]

My contribution for the moment - more pics of the Pistoia altarpiece. I've just posted a handful of the pics I took of the Pistoia silver altar online, from my recent trip where I was given permission to take as many photos as I liked. I tried to get as many angles as possible, and I'll upload a few more pics of the other panels from the altar when time permits. Please feel free to re-post and if you intend to use any of my photos for any publication please contact me first as I have higher resolution versions of these pics which I would be happy to provide. Here's a link to the album.

https://plus.google.com/photos/10079049 ... 2025303825

[Dan Howard]

the pair in pair of plates is pair as in latin par, meaning something in a grouping that is alike or similar. There could be two or ten as long as they are equal or like each other. I tend to think it simply means garment of many plates.

The best modern English translation for "pair" would be "set".

[RandallMoffett]

Set works. I tend to go by meanings over direct translations to avoid loss of meaning from the original. Set works in this case I think.

RPM

[Klaus the Red]

Hugeus, thanks for the photos- those are awesome. We never get to see this level of detail (down to the rivet!) in the usual published pics.

[Ernst]

ta-de

Later the same page he talks about belts to support a paunce so sounds like mail skirt, at least in this case.

Some more evidence to consider -
The 1322 Inventory of Robert Béthune, Count of Flanders
https://archive.org/stream/documentsete ... a_djvu.txt

Item , deus gorgieres franchoises de demi clawre.
Item , une paire de manches de Lombardie a plates et uns pans.
Item , uns pans de France pour atakier a auketon.
Item , une paire de wans de haubergerie de France.
Item , un haubergon de Melan.
Item, deus piechetes de fier pour atachier a uns pans.

Item, two free (separate?), demi-riveted gorgets.
Item, a pair of sleeves of flat rings from Lombardy and a paunce. (or is plates literally plates rather than the direct trans. to "flat"?)
Item, a paunce of French manufacture for attaching(?) to an aketon
Item, a pair of wans of haubergerie of France. (I wonder if this isn't a wams/gambeson with some mail reinforcement?)
Item, an haubergeon of Milan.
Two pieces of iron for the attachment of a paunce. (Hooks? Buckles?)

[Sean M]

Some more evidence to consider -
The 1322 Inventory of Robert Béthune, Count of Flanders
https://archive.org/stream/documentsete ... a_djvu.txt

Item, deus gorgieres franchoises de demi clawre.
Item, une paire de manches de Lombardie a plates et uns pans.

Item, two free (separate?), demi-riveted gorgets.
Item, a pair of sleeves of flat rings from Lombardy and a paunce. (or is plates literally plates rather than the direct trans. to "flat"?)

French <à> is one of those prepositions which can mean almost anything (like English <for>), but I would be tempted to read that as "one pair of sleeves of Lombardy for plates and a paunce", and <atakier> and <atachier> as alternate spellings of the same word.

Sometimes words in the manche/manchette family can refer to the shoulder defenses of a pair of plates, but these are listed with mail and come from Lombardy, so mail sleeves is a likely interpretation.

[Sean M]

Also, the DMF thinks that <wans> is an alternative form of <gants> ie. "gloves." I think this word comes up in one of the big theses on armour from the UK.

Edit: Richardson's example of wams de maille is the Hainault rule of 1336.

[Robert of Canterbury]

on the topic of Names for bits of Mail, What is the current thinking on the Pair of Mail briefs* in the Museum of London?

(Pants/underwear/briefs/nappy/diaper/whatheaveyou. Mail to cover your Arse and bits)

[Keegan Ingrassia]

on the topic of Names for bits of Mail, What is the current thinking on the Pair of Mail briefs* in the Museum of London?

(Pants/underwear/briefs/nappy/diaper/whatheaveyou. Mail to cover your Arse and bits)

A brayette.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=179828

[Sean M]

on the topic of Names for bits of Mail, What is the current thinking on the Pair of Mail briefs* in the Museum of London?

(Pants/underwear/briefs/nappy/diaper/whatheaveyou. Mail to cover your Arse and bits)

Indeed, for all the arguments about the "proper words" today, medieval people seem to used any word for "something worn on a particular body part" to refer to armour for that part! Mail breeches is perfectly fine English.

First behoveth Sabatouns grevis & cloos quysseux wt voydours of plate or of mayle & a cloos breche of mayle wt 5 bokles of stele ye tisseux of fyne lether.

[Ernst]

Also, the DMF thinks that <wans> is an alternative form of <gants> ie. "gloves." I think this word comes up in one of the big theses on armour from the UK.

So separate mail gauntlets? They wouldn't be out of place in 1300-1330.

Thanks for the corrections.

[Sean M]

Ah, I just put together other people's sources and dictionary entries. The important thing is bringing together as many passages like this as we can find.

At least we have a new synonym for mail! The DMF entry for haubergerie does not have anything too exciting, except that it cites a book L. Douet-d'Arcq ed., Comptes de l'argenterie des rois de France au XIVe siècle (Paris 1851) which was reprinted in 1966 and is on Google Books. Apparently the argenterie bought some armour.

[RandallMoffett]

Looks like an interesting read.

[Ernst]

p.145

Ledit Guillaume (le Bon, coffrier): pour une paire de pettis cofres couvers,
à mectre haubergerie, bannières, tunicles et autre paramens. 8' p.

Thanks for the reference Sean. I almost wonder if we shouldn't start threads for each documentary source. There's a lot of purchase accounts in this one.