Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

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Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Mac »

Tom B brought this document up in another thread. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=168360&start=35

It seems to me to be such an important document as to warrant its own thread. For convenience, I will take an excerpt from the version that Will McLean (Galleron) has on his blog. http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... johan.html I am mostly concerned with the arming of the combatants , and not the formalities of the duel, so I have not copied the whole thing.
TRAYTESE OF THE POYNTES OF WORSHIP IN ARMES BY JOHAN HYLL,
ARMORER SERGEANT IN THE KINGE’S ARMORY 1434
Bod. Lib., Ashmole. MS. 856, art. 22, pp. 376—~83

[376] Too my leve Lordes here nowe next folowinge is a Traytese compyled by Johan Hyll Armorier Sergeant in the office of Armory wt, Kinges Henry ye 4th and Henry ye 5th of ye poyntes of Worship in Armes and how he shall be diversely Armed & gouverned under supportacion of faveurof alle ye Needes to coverte adde & amenuse where nede is by the high comandement of the Princes that have powair so for to ordeyne & establishe

The first Honneur in Armes is a Gentilman to fight in his Souverain Lords quarell in a bataille of Treason sworne withinne Listes before his souverain Lorde whether he be Appellant or Defendant ye houneur is his that winneth ye feelde.

As for the appellant thus Armed by his owne witte or by his counsaille wch is assigned to him before Conestabie & Marchall ye wch Counsaille is ordeyned & bounden to teche hym alle maner of fightynge & soteltees of Armes that longeth for a battaile sworne

First hym nedeth to have a paire of hosen of corde wtoute vampeys And the saide hosen kutte at ye knees and lyned wtin wt Lynnen cloth byesse as the hose is A payre of shoen of red Lether thynne laced & fretted underneth wt whippecorde & persed, And above withinne Lyned wt Lynnen cloth three fyngers in brede double & byesse from the too an yncle above ye wriste. And so behinde at ye hele from the Soole halfe a quarter of a yearde uppe this is to fasten wele to his Sabatons And the same Sabatons fastened under ye soole of ye fote in 2 places hym nedeth also a petycote of an overbody of a doublett, his petycote wt oute sleves, ye syses of him 3 quarters aboute wt outen coler, And that other part noo ferther thanne [377] ye waste wt streyte sleves and coler and cutaine oylettes in ye sleves for ye vaunt bras and ye Rerebrase

Armed in this wise First behoveth Sabatouns grevis & cloos quysseux wt voydours of plate or of mayle & a cloos breche of mayle wt 5 bokles of stele ye tisseux of fyne lether. And all ye armyng poyntes after they ben knytte & fastened on hym armed that ye poyntes of him be kutte of

And thanne a paire of cloos gussetts strong sclave not drawes and thatye gussets be thre fingers withinne his plates at both assises And thanne a paire of plattes at xx li lib weight his breste & his plats enarmed to wt wyre or wt poyntes.

A pair of Rerebraces shitten withinne the plates before wt twi forlockes and behinde wt thre forlocks. A paire of vaunt bras cloos wt voydours of mayle & fretted. A pair of gloves of avantage wche may be devised. A basnet of avauntage for ye listes whiche is not goode for noon other battailles but man for man save that necessitie hath noo lawe, the basnet locked baver & vysour locked or charnelled also to ye brest & behynde wt two forlockes. And this Gentilman appellent aforesaide whanne he is thus armed & redy to come to ye felde do on hym a cote of armes of sengle tarten ye beter for avauntage in fighting. And his leg harneys covered alle wt reed taritryn the wche ben called tunictes for he coverynge of his leg harneys is doen because his adversarie shal not lightly espye his blode. And therefore also hen his hosen reed for in alle other colours blode wol lightly be seyne, for by the oolde tyme in such a bataile there shulde noo thing have be seyn here save his basnett & his gloves. And thanne tye on hym a payre of besagewes. Also it fitteth the [378] foresaide counsaille to goo to ye kyng the daye before ye bataille & aske his logging nigh ye listes. Also ye foresaide Counsaille must ordeyne hym the masses ye first masse of ye Trinitie ye seconde of ye Holy Goste & ye thirde of owre Ladye or elles of what other sainte or saintes that he hath devocion unto
It can also be found here. http://books.google.com/books?id=HqRsCy ... 56&f=false in Ffaulkes' Armourer and His Craft, as Appendix C

I hope that folks will discuss likely ways to interpret the arming. Some of the passages are pretty straightforward, and others are difficult to understand.

Mac
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Tom B. »

Thanks for making the new thread, this definitely deserves its own conversation.
a paire of hosen of corde wtoute vampeys And the saide hosen kutte at ye knees and lyned wtin wt Lynnen cloth
This is a bit puzzeling to me

I just found a reference for Vampeys here
Short hose or stockings that covered the feet, and came up only to the ankle, just above the shoe.
It seems like it is saying a pair of linen lined hose without vampeys (lower leg and foot)
The hose are cut off /end just below the knee?

I still do not know what is meant by hosen of corde
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Tom B. »

payre of shoen of red Lether thynne laced & fretted underneth wt whippecorde & persed
Frist part is clear enough.

Pair of thin red leather shoes laced and fretted underneath with whipcord (much like the Hasting Manuscript)
Persed?
Pierced?
for pointing the sabaton?
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Tom B. »

And above withinne Lyned wt Lynnen cloth three fyngers in brede double & byesse from the too an yncle above ye wriste
I presume this is meaning the shoes.
Lined with linen 3 fingers in width, doubled.
From the toe to above the ankle?

The wrist part is troublesome, aren't we talking about feet?
Has anyone seen wrist used to refer to the ankle region?

Is this a cloth lining for the shoe or a sock?
Due to the hose not having feet.

Is this a wrap around the foot and ankle?
Both because of the hose not having feet and giving some extra support for the foot / ankle.

or after looking at the next section, is this talking about linen points for the sabaton?
Last edited by Tom B. on Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Tom B. »

And so behinde at ye hele from the Soole halfe a quarter of a yearde uppe this is to fasten wele to his Sabatons And the same Sabatons fastened under ye soole of ye fote in 2 places
This sounds like it is talking about a location on the upper of the shoe above the heel.
Maybe holes for pointing the sabaton?
Or is it still talking about the 3 finger wide linen cloth?
If the cloth, how does that help to fasten the sabaton?

Also the sabaton is to fasten under the sole in two places.
Are these straps mounted to the sabaton or are these locations of the piercings disscused earlier for pointing?
I don't think you would want to point to the sole.
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Tom B. »

hym nedeth also a petycote of an overbody of a doublett, his petycote wt oute sleves, ye syses of him 3 quarters aboute wt outen coler, And that other part noo ferther thanne [377] ye waste wt streyte sleves and coler and cutaine oylettes in ye sleves for ye vaunt bras and ye Rerebrase
I think this is talking about two separate upper body garments.
hym nedeth also a petycote of an overbody of a doublett, his petycote wt oute sleves, ye syses of him 3 quarters aboute wt outen coler
This is a collarless vest type garment, presumably for pointing hose or leg harness?
And that other part noo ferther thanne [377] ye waste wt streyte sleves and coler and cutaine oylettes in ye sleves for ye vaunt bras and ye Rerebrase
This sounds like a short collared arming doublet for point the arm harness.

Having 2 garments would definitely help to keep the arms free to move.
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Ernst »

Tom B. wrote:
a paire of hosen of corde wtoute vampeys And the saide hosen kutte at ye knees and lyned wtin wt Lynnen cloth
This is a bit puzzeling to me

I still do not know what is meant by hosen of corde
Corduroy doesn't appear to show up in English until the 18th century, however there are medieval references to carda, carde or card as a fabric type. Some define it as linen, others as low grade silk. In the 1278 Tournament at Windsor Park, carda was used for surcoats and to cover leather ailettes.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=162750
http://books.google.com/books?id=LTYfAQ ... ic&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=aYEPAA ... &q&f=false

It is possible that carda was woven in cords like the later corduroy, whose etymology is uncertain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corduroy
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Ernst »

Tom B. wrote:
payre of shoen of red Lether thynne laced & fretted underneth wt whippecorde & persed
Frist part is clear enough.

Pair of thin red leather shoes laced and fretted underneath with whipcord (much like the Hasting Manuscript)
Persed?
Pierced?
for pointing the sabaton?
Another possibility: Pursed as a verb mean to draw tightly or pucker as in, "She pursed her lips."
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Ernst »

Tom B. wrote:
hym nedeth also a petycote of an overbody of a doublett, his petycote wt oute sleves, ye syses of him 3 quarters aboute wt outen coler
This is a collarless vest type garment, presumably for pointing hose or leg harness?
Underwear? A sleeveless petite coat, vest, or T-shirt. I presume without color would be white. The 3/4 size of him is intriguing. Perhaps to indicate a tight fit, or would it remain open in the front?
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by James B. »

Ernst wrote:
Tom B. wrote:
hym nedeth also a petycote of an overbody of a doublett, his petycote wt oute sleves, ye syses of him 3 quarters aboute wt outen coler
This is a collarless vest type garment, presumably for pointing hose or leg harness?
Underwear? A sleeveless petite coat, vest, or T-shirt. I presume without color would be white. The 3/4 size of him is intriguing. Perhaps to indicate a tight fit, or would it remain open in the front?
You sometimes see a man wearing a doublets with a short sleeved body garment over it; this is what I am picturing as it mentions "an overbody of a doublett"

Like this guy:

Image

Or this guy:

Image
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Mac »

Tom B. wrote:Thanks for making the new thread, this definitely deserves its own conversation.
a paire of hosen of corde wtoute vampeys And the saide hosen kutte at ye knees and lyned wtin wt Lynnen cloth
This is a bit puzzeling to me

I just found a reference for Vampeys here
Short hose or stockings that covered the feet, and came up only to the ankle, just above the shoe.
It seems like it is saying a pair of linen lined hose without vampeys (lower leg and foot)
The hose are cut off /end just below the knee?

I still do not know what is meant by hosen of corde
I did not expect to find that the "vampeys" were a garment unto them selves. I thought that he was talking about stirrup hosen. The part of a shoe that covers the instep and toes is called the vamp, and I presumed that the corresponding part of the hose might be similarly named.

In any case, it looks like our combatant has nothing between his feet and his shoes unless it be the lining of the later.



Mac
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Mac »

Tom B. wrote:
And above withinne Lyned wt Lynnen cloth three fyngers in brede double & byesse from the too an yncle above ye wriste
I presume this is meaning the shoes.
Lined with linen 3 fingers in width, doubled.
From the toe to above the ankle?

The wrist part is troublesome, aren't we talking about feet?
Has anyone seen wrist used to refer to the ankle region?

Is this a cloth lining for the shoe or a sock?
Due to the hose not having feet.

Is this a wrap around the foot and ankle?
Both because of the hose not having feet and giving some extra support for the foot / ankle.

or after looking at the next section, is this talking about linen points for the sabaton?
I don't know of any other examples of calling the ankle a "wriste", but given the context, that's how I am reading it.

It certainly looks like that linen is there to make up for the lack of "vampys", but it is not clear if it is is attached to the inside of the shoes, or wrapped around the feet like portyanki https://www.google.com/search?q=portyan ... 40&bih=807

Mac
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Mac »

Ernst wrote:
Tom B. wrote:
a paire of hosen of corde wtoute vampeys And the saide hosen kutte at ye knees and lyned wtin wt Lynnen cloth
This is a bit puzzeling to me

I still do not know what is meant by hosen of corde
Corduroy doesn't appear to show up in English until the 18th century, however there are medieval references to carda, carde or card as a fabric type. Some define it as linen, others as low grade silk. In the 1278 Tournament at Windsor Park, carda was used for surcoats and to cover leather ailettes.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=162750
http://books.google.com/books?id=LTYfAQ ... ic&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=aYEPAA ... &q&f=false

It is possible that carda was woven in cords like the later corduroy, whose etymology is uncertain.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corduroy
Do you think there is any chance that "corde" is cordwain? Contemporary German judicial combatants are sewn into leather hosen. Perhaps it is thus here as well.

Mac
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Mac »

James B. wrote:
Ernst wrote:
Tom B. wrote:
hym nedeth also a petycote of an overbody of a doublett, his petycote wt oute sleves, ye syses of him 3 quarters aboute wt outen coler
This is a collarless vest type garment, presumably for pointing hose or leg harness?
Underwear? A sleeveless petite coat, vest, or T-shirt. I presume without color would be white. The 3/4 size of him is intriguing. Perhaps to indicate a tight fit, or would it remain open in the front?
You sometimes see a man wearing a doublets with a short sleeved body garment over it; this is what I am picturing as it mentions "an overbody of a doublett"

Like this guy:

Image

Or this guy:

Image
Will's interpretation of the arming garments is this....(from his blog)
A sleeveless, collarless “petycote… of a doublet” is worn, which would support the legharness without binding the shoulders. Over that is an “other part noo ferther thane ye waste wt streyte sleves and coler and cutain oylettes for ye vaunt bras and ye Rerebrase”. This could support the armharness while allowing relatively free movement.
As I understand him, he is positing a sleeveless garment to support the legs, over which is worn a sort of fabric "shrug" to support the arm armor. While this is unprecedented in art, it sounds plausible in the context.

Mac
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The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.

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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Galleron »

Mac wrote:
James B. wrote:
Ernst wrote:
Tom B. wrote:
hym nedeth also a petycote of an overbody of a doublett, his petycote wt oute sleves, ye syses of him 3 quarters aboute wt outen coler
This is a collarless vest type garment, presumably for pointing hose or leg harness?
Underwear? A sleeveless petite coat, vest, or T-shirt. I presume without color would be white. The 3/4 size of him is intriguing. Perhaps to indicate a tight fit, or would it remain open in the front?
You sometimes see a man wearing a doublets with a short sleeved body garment over it; this is what I am picturing as it mentions "an overbody of a doublett"

Like this guy:

Image

Or this guy:

Image
Will's interpretation of the arming garments is this....(from his blog)
A sleeveless, collarless “petycote… of a doublet” is worn, which would support the legharness without binding the shoulders. Over that is an “other part noo ferther thane ye waste wt streyte sleves and coler and cutain oylettes for ye vaunt bras and ye Rerebrase”. This could support the armharness while allowing relatively free movement.
As I understand him, he is positing a sleeveless garment to support the legs, over which is worn a sort of fabric "shrug" to support the arm armor. While this is unprecedented in art, it sounds plausible in the context.

Mac
Several such "shrugs" survived into the 19th century at Madrid.

http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... blets.html
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Tom B. »

Galleron wrote:
Several such "shrugs" survived into the 19th century at Madrid.

http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... blets.html
We are currently discussing that image ,from Charles V's inventario illuminado, in Mac's thread which is the parent to this one :)

Any extant examples of mail like this?
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Mac »

I guess I should have said that the combination of sleeveless doublet and shrug was unprecedented in mid 15th C art.

I am very excited to think that this might be another example of the "arming shrug". The surprising part is the sleeveless doublet that goes under it.

Mac
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Galleron »

Mac wrote:I guess I should have said that the combination of sleeveless doublet and shrug was unprecedented in mid 15th C art.

I am very excited to think that this might be another example of the "arming shrug". The surprising part is the sleeveless doublet that goes under it.

Mac

Louis XI's regulation on jacks also mention a sleeveless doublet:

"And first they must have for the said Jacks, 30, or at least 25 folds of cloth and a stag's skin; those of 30, with the stag's skin, being the best cloth that has been worn and rendered flexible, is best for this purpose, and these Jacks should be made in four quarters. The sleeves should be as strong as the body, with the exception of the leather, and the arm-hole of the sleeve must be large, which arm-hole should be placed near the collar, not on the bone of the shoulder, that it may be broad under the armpit and full under the arm, sufficiently ample and large on the sides below. The collar should be like the rest of the Jack, but not too high behind, to allow room for the sallet. This Jack should be laced in front, and under the opening must be a hanging piece [porte piece] of the same strength as the Jack itself. Thus the Jack will be secure and easy, provided that there be a doublet [pourpoint] without sleeves or collar, of two folds of cloth, that shall be only four fingers broad on the shoulder; to which doublet shall be attached the chausess. Thus shall the wearer float, as it were, within his jack and be at his ease; for never have been seen half a dozen men killed by stabs or arrow wounds in such Jacks, particularly if they be troops accustomed to fighting."
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by James B. »

It should be mentioned that the Louis XI's regulation is only holding up hosen in that case :D
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Ernst »

Mac wrote:
Tom B. wrote:
And above withinne Lyned wt Lynnen cloth three fyngers in brede double & byesse from the too an yncle above ye wriste
The wrist part is troublesome, aren't we talking about feet?
Has anyone seen wrist used to refer to the ankle region?
I don't know of any other examples of calling the ankle a "wriste", but given the context, that's how I am reading it.
Apparently the original meaning includes both the wrist and ankle.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=wrist
wrist (n.)
Old English wrist, from Proto-Germanic *wristiz (cf. Old Norse rist "instep," Old Frisian wrist, Middle Dutch wrist, German Rist "back of the hand, instep"), from Proto-Germanic *wrig-, *wreik- "to turn" (see wry). The notion is "the turning joint."
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Ernst »

Mac wrote:Do you think there is any chance that "corde" is cordwain? Contemporary German judicial combatants are sewn into leather hosen. Perhaps it is thus here as well.

Mac
It seems less likely to me. I've never seen cordwain or cordovan shortened in such a way. I still lean toward it being some sort of twilled fabric woven in cords.
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Mac »

Ernst wrote: Apparently the original meaning includes both the wrist and ankle.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=wrist
wrist (n.)
Old English wrist, from Proto-Germanic *wristiz (cf. Old Norse rist "instep," Old Frisian wrist, Middle Dutch wrist, German Rist "back of the hand, instep"), from Proto-Germanic *wrig-, *wreik- "to turn" (see wry). The notion is "the turning joint."
Well done sir!

Mac
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Mac »

OK, so how about....
And the saide hosen kutte at ye knees and lyned wtin wt Lynnen cloth byesse as the hose is
The part where they are "lined with linen cloth (cut on the?) bias (?) like the hose" seems pretty straightforward. It seems to confirm Ernst's conclusions that the hosen are fabric; rather than leather, as I put forth.

....but what does he mean by "cut at the knees"? Slashed for mobility? Tailored for nice fit? Terminating at the knee?

Mac
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Tom B.
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Tom B. »

Mac wrote:I guess I should have said that the combination of sleeveless doublet and shrug was unprecedented in mid 15th C art.

I am very excited to think that this might be another example of the "arming shrug". The surprising part is the sleeveless doublet that goes under it.

Mac

But the shrug would seem to to the type with sleeves, since the arm harness are pointed to it right?
Also voiders for inside the elbow.
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Ernst »

Mac wrote:OK, so how about....
And the saide hosen kutte at ye knees and lyned wtin wt Lynnen cloth byesse as the hose is
The part where they are "lined with linen cloth (cut on the?) bias (?) like the hose" seems pretty straightforward. It seems to confirm Ernst's conclusions that the hosen are fabric; rather than leather, as I put forth.

....but what does he mean by "cut at the knees"? Slashed for mobility? Tailored for nice fit? Terminating at the knee?

Mac
Since the hose are specified to be footless, without vamps, it seems wrong to suggest they stop at the knee. 1434 is a bit before the slashed and puffed style of the Landsknecht, so I'm certain that's not meant, nor have I ever seen any indication of some sort of gore or gusset inset at the knee. Perhaps it's similar to the description of a "doublet cut full of holes" where cut can mean slit for eyelets, though eyelets are specifically mentioned for the vambrace and rerebrace points but not here. How would the mail voiders behind the knee be attached?
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Mac
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Mac »

That's certainly an interesting question, Ernst.

Our author says....
& cloos quysseux wt voydours of plate or of mayle
Since he is specifying closed cuisses, the voiders in question are just for the backs of the knees, and there is no need for them to cover the back of the thigh.

It seems like there are four general ways that voiders might be held to the back of the knee. They could be.....

.... attached to the cuisses. Later voiders of plate are attached to the cannons of the armor. Perhaps early ones were be as well. Mail voiders could be more of less permenently attached to the plate armor as well, but I can only bring to mind one later example (on a vambrace) of this.

.... sewn or pointed to the hosen. This is the most obvious thing. Sewing is more secure and less likely to get caught in the articulations than points. This makes the hosen more difficult to wash, of course. That won't matter in the context of single combat, but it might be a concern in general.

....sewn to a sort of "sleeve" that fit over the knee, and was held up by points to the hosen. I have not seen any evidence for this, but I think it would work OK.

....attached to a pair of specialized "over hosen". If my memory serves me, I have seen such a garment from a page of the Inventario Iluminado but I don't remember where it was published.

For what is is worth, contemporary English effigies are practically universal in showing closed cuisses with mail at the backs of the knees.

Mac
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Ernst
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Ernst »

The added weight of sewing the mail to the hosen concerns me, perhaps more than it should, considering our Treatise call for the hose to be lined with linen. So we are looking at hosen made of red (And therefore also hen his hosen reed for in alle other colours blode wol lightly be seyne), twill-like "cord" fabric, lined with linen, both cut on the bias, without feet, and possibly cut for points at the knee?
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Kel Rekuta »

Ernst wrote:The added weight of sewing the mail to the hosen concerns me, perhaps more than it should, considering our Treatise call for the hose to be lined with linen. So we are looking at hosen made of red (And therefore also hen his hosen reed for in alle other colours blode wol lightly be seyne), twill-like "cord" fabric, lined with linen, both cut on the bias, without feet, and possibly cut for points at the knee?
A small gusset of mail is very light, even in 6mm ring. I doubt mine weigh more than a few ounces. Having little knowledge of fabric, I looked up twills. I would definitely want linen under that stuff if it were sturdy and coarse. It would be like sand paper on the knees.

BTW guys, this is probably the best thread I've seen in a long time. Thanks for sharing your hard won research. 8)
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Tom B. »

The description reminds me of these hose from this late 15th century painting of St. Michael.

(click images to get to the higher resolution versions)
Image

Image

Image

Image
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Ernst
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Ernst »

Tom,
Quite an interesting exemplar. While the hose could be interpreted as finely quilted, might these not also be woven "corde"?
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Henrik Granlid
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Henrik Granlid »

They look more akin to panzerhosen to me, there's a discussion a little bit down in this thread.
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Mac »

I have worried about this image in the past, and I have to agree with Henrik.

It's tantalizing,though, isn't it!.... But when you get right down, to it soul-judging is serious business, and St. Mike would not appear less than fully armed while doing it. I think we are meant to see these as panzerhosen and the mail at the knee is not a gusset, but rather all the protection he gets there.

The lost (?) panzerhosen that we have pics of also have (or have had) mail at the knees. In this case, the mail is only in strips on the front and sides of the knees.

ImageImage


Mac
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Tom B. »

I remembered the panzer hosen pics & thread and agree the painting looks to be the same.

Mac,

You make a good point about him being fully armed.
I also noted the hosen stirups go over his shoes indicatong these are an outer layer.

Couldn't the mail gussets be done the same as these?
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Henrik Granlid »

These "strips of mail" seem to be only remnants, note the very strip-shaped empty areas with eyelettes.
We could simply be looking at the spots where there once was more mail strips attatched.
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Re: Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

Post by Mac »

Henrik,

I am seeing a rust pattern on the fabric that indicates that there were four strips of mail on each knee, with unarmored spaces in between.

Mac
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