Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

[Mac]

Couldn't the mail gussets be done the same as these?

Do you mean sewn on to a pair of "überhosen"? I don't see why not. I would expect the mail to be only on the back of the knee, though.

[Ernst]

But when you get right down, to it soul-judging is serious business, and St. Mike would not appear less than fully armed while doing it. I think we are meant to see these as panzerhosen and the mail at the knee is not a gusset, but rather all the protection he gets there.

Look at this other famous example.
http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections/se ... /110002195


Could the mail run inside the back of the greave but over the front of it?! Or is there a gusset sewn to the hosen, and a separate flap of mail suspended from the lame below the poleyn? Does the short strap hold the mail flap on the front to the greave back?

MET 12.192 (2) (280x360).jpg (96.77 KiB) Viewed 11910 times

MET 12.192 (3) (340x318).jpg (97 KiB) Viewed 11910 times

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Usually, its a flap of mail hung from the demi-greave. Interesting detail, but in that first zoomed-in image, you can actually see the stitches at the top of the mail gusset on the back of the knee.

[Tom B.]

Look at this other famous example.
http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections/se ... /110002195

Could the mail run inside the back of the greave but over the front of it?! Or is there a gusset sewn to the hosen, and a separate flap of mail suspended from the lame below the poleyn? Does the short strap hold the mail flap on the front to the greave back?

MET 12.192 (2) (280x360).jpg

I was going o post that one but my phone would not co-operate.
That is one of my favorite images from the very early 15th century.

As usual Galleron / Will is a few years ahead of us.
(click images to see higher resolution versions)

[Mac]

Could the mail run inside the back of the greave but over the front of it?! Or is there a gusset sewn to the hosen, and a separate flap of mail suspended from the lame below the poleyn? Does the short strap hold the mail flap on the front to the greave back?

This is a good one!

I had thought about the idea of the gusset and the demigreave flap being part of the same thing, and I keep rejecting it. It seems a bit contrived somehow. Yet, one wonders about the origins of the demigreave flap....

The short strap is almost certainly the upper greave-closing strap. It just happens to emerge from under the demigreave mail flap.

Mac

[Mac]

Interesting detail, but in that first zoomed-in image, you can actually see the stitches at the top of the mail gusset on the back of the knee.

KI,

I am not sure it we are seeing stitches, of a sort of scalloped edging on the upper edge of the mail. I favor the later. That makes it more like what you see on the tops of contemporary mail collars.

Mac

[Mac]

Good call, Tom. G's blog has some good stuff.



Those pics are good comparanda for the St. Mike panel. I had been inclined to view the big red area on the Saint's legs as being a broad leather strap, rather than red hosen. In my wilder speculations, I even thought that the mail gusset might be attached to such a strap. On the other hand, the guys in the Lancelot Grail MS clearly have cuisse straps over the red. In their case it must be red hosen rather than a broad strap. I suppose it is probably thus for San Miguel as well.

Mac

[Ernst]

Mac,
As they say, "If it were a snake, it would have bit me." The strap to close the greave totally escaped my mind. A small slit in the mail "tube" around the previous Saint's knee armor would easily allow half to go in the greave, and half out, but I don't see why anyone would want mail beneath the poleyn. Then again, I don't know of any other example of using a mail tube as the sole knee armor.

Since consensus seems to remain that the mail behind the knee is a gusset or voider sewn to the hose, we are still left with trying to explain, "And the saide hosen kutte at ye knees" if it's not cut with holes for points.

[Tom B.]

Could the mail run inside the back of the greave but over the front of it?! Or is there a gusset sewn to the hosen, and a separate flap of mail suspended from the lame below the poleyn? Does the short strap hold the mail flap on the front to the greave back?

This is a good one!

I had thought about the idea of the gusset and the demigreave flap being part of the same thing, and I keep rejecting it. It seems a bit contrived somehow. Yet, one wonders about the origins of the demigreave flap....

The short strap is almost certainly the upper greave-closing strap. It just happens to emerge from under the demigreave mail flap.

Mac

I have been waiting to post on just this subject.
I need to find the supporting pics.
If I am remembering correctly I have seen at least on edepection where there seems to be a double layer of mail at the greve front.

[Henrik Granlid]

Could he be wearing hosen with a stirrup that end at the knee going from foot to knee rather than hip to knee?
We occasionally see men with the colour of skin on the backside of the thigh when wearing plated leggings, if the hosen end right above the knee, they can still have voiders and can still be held up with long leather/cloth points. I admit that this is likely not an effective thing, but it could be something we are overlooking.

The hose is without a foot, suggesting a stirrup.
It is cut at the knee but then we don't need the stirrup.
Flip it. What happens now?

[Mac]

A small slit in the mail "tube" around the previous Saint's knee armor would easily allow half to go in the greave, and half out, but I don't see why anyone would want mail beneath the poleyn. Then again, I don't know of any other example of using a mail tube as the sole knee armor.

I always get a bit squeamish about the idea of putting mail between bone and plate. It takes up valuable volume, and offers nothing. On the other hand, it does seem like lots of guys wore mail coifs under their helmets.... so, I am not sure what to think.

Since consensus seems to remain that the mail behind the knee is a gusset or voider sewn to the hose, we are still left with trying to explain, "And the saide hosen kutte at ye knees" if it's not cut with holes for points.

I keep coming back to the idea that he is talking about some sort of tailoring. When you get right down to it, everything we "know" about the cut of hosen in the 14 and 15th centuries is based on just a couple of finds, and none of those are "high end" hosen. Artists consistently depict hosen fitting tighter and smother than anybody I know is able to achieve. Perhaps there are some "tricks" of tailoring that we just don't have a clue about. Perhaps there are clever ways to make the knees tighter without wrinkles. More importantly in this context, perhaps there are ways to make them fit snugly without being restrictive.

Mac

[Keegan Ingrassia]

In that vein, Mac, it wouldn't be a far stretch to imagine a pieced set of hosen, in much the way that the CdB cotte is made. Smaller pieces, artfully arranged for better mobility and a tighter fit, could achieve that look. Perhaps even a pre-bent knee, in the same manner that the elbow is pre-bent. The mail gusset would cover where that seam would lie, and fulled wool would do much to conceal (or at least smooth) a seam, especially one that is lapped rather than butted.

ETA: Perhaps a bit like this?



Its a conservative difference, but that seam could serve to tighten the area under the knee and over the calf, without compromising the needed flexibility of the knee "cup". And if the two pieces were canted slightly, as the elbow in the CdB is, it would make for a more comfortable fit during riding, which would arguably be of preference to those of a higher status. Not to mention, it would be easier to piece out four shorter pieces on the bias, than the entire leg. And a narrow loom was more in use during these centuries.

[Tailoress]

First hym nedeth to have a paire of hosen of corde wtoute vampeys And the saide hosen kutte at ye knees and lyned wtin wt Lynnen cloth byesse as the hose is

I interpret this to mean that the man is wearing a normal pair of bias-cut hose, and then a sort of gamboised cuisse (hosen stuffed with cord) is placed over that, and ends at the knee. And, it's lined with bias-cut linen. I saw the earlier discussion regarding a corderoy fabric, but is it out fo the realm of possibility that this simply means "cord" in the current sense of the word? These would then serve as a force dampener for the legs, I suppose.

ANOTHER interpretation is that these cord-hose go down to the ankle, but are open at the knees so that bias-cut linen can be placed there (presumably to accommodate the bending). These guys weren't "fighting from their knees" so padding in that area is not of the same high priority that modern-day SCA fighters place on it. My guy, who wears a full harness sometimes to fight with steel weapons, does not pad behind his closely-fitted knee cops. When employing historical techniques and weapons, there's apparently less need for that.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

[Signo]

The problem of a hoses so tight fitting, is not mobility, is getting out of it without chopping your feet.
One thing that bug my mind about hosen, is this:
It is not possible that those hosen were made with knitted wool? I think knitting is a later technique, but there is a similar technique that can achieve similar outcomes if I remember right and is quite ancient (now I can't remember its name). This would make the tight fitting hosen look very very simple to achieve, and even the later use to make hosen with multicolored strips or patches.
Can someone enlighten me on the subject?

Alternatively: Can a canvas made weaving thick wool, similar to the dimension used in knitting, achieve adeguate stretching to allow a tight fitting hosen to be made?

[Tailoress]

It is not possible that those hosen were made with knitted wool? I think knitting is a later technique, but there is a similar technique that can achieve similar outcomes if I remember right and is quite ancient (now I can't remember its name). This would make the tight fitting hosen look very very simple to achieve, and even the later use to make hosen with multicolored strips or patches.
Can someone enlighten me on the subject?

Knitting was certainly a known and used technology in the 14th century onward, as we have extant pieces here and there, as well as the occasional image (Mary knitting Christ's seamless shirt, for instance). It probably was known earlier too, but I was just checking at the time to see what was going on in my favorite century and stopped there.

Knitting something as fine as hosen would be quite a project with very small gauge knitting needles, but I don't see it as being out of the question. It certainly would solve a lot of our frustration over emulating the smooth, tight fit seen in so much of the art of the later 14thc and the 15thc.

[Mac]

When I think of hosen, I keep coming back to this tapestry. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... inbald.jpg

The artist (original cartoon believed to be Rogier van der Weyden) has done something with the knees that I do not understand. I don't know if he just had an unconventional idea about shading, or if we are supposed to understand something about the "cut" of the knees.



Mac

[Tom B.]

Mac,

I have been looking through execution images as well. They seem to be a good source for partially armed figures.
Often either the the executioner or his victim are partially armed.


Looking elsewhere in the tapestry you posted shows similar depiction of knee areas on what looks to be civilian clothing.

[Mac]

It's true, Tom. Whatever is going on with the executioner's knees is also going on with the nicely dressed civilian fellows. That's way I took care not crop out the guy who's mopping his eyes with his liripipe.

Is it just a kink of the artist, or does it tell us something about the nicer sort of hosen?

Mac

[Signo]

I would dare to say that the artist was trying to show leg's muscles through the canvas.

[Signo]

Knitting was certainly a known and used technology in the 14th century onward, as we have extant pieces here and there, as well as the occasional image (Mary knitting Christ's seamless shirt, for instance). It probably was known earlier too, but I was just checking at the time to see what was going on in my favorite century and stopped there.

Knitting something as fine as hosen would be quite a project with very small gauge knitting needles, but I don't see it as being out of the question. It certainly would solve a lot of our frustration over emulating the smooth, tight fit seen in so much of the art of the later 14thc and the 15thc.

What does the fragments tell us about thread size? Why do you think that only with very thin needles (and thus I suppose thread) you could achieve what they were portraying? Sorry if they appear silly questions.

[Mac]

I would dare to say that the artist was trying to show leg's muscles through the canvas.

I am with you there, Marco. But, what about the knees? Is that shading as well, or is there something else going on? I can't convince myself one way or the other.

Mac

[Signo]

I think only a good picture non scanned from a medium quality print could tell.

[James B.]

I would dare to say that the artist was trying to show leg's muscles through the canvas.

I am with you there, Marco. But, what about the knees? Is that shading as well, or is there something else going on? I can't convince myself one way or the other.

Mac

If you look at a muscled person there is a crease above the knee and the lower knee creates a shadow on the shin. This is what I think they tied to show but the skills of the weaver are not as good as a painter. Just another guess. The shadowing for the calf muscle is why over the top too.


However going back to the executioner, I have long wondered is he wearing a linen layer over his doublet to protect it, is that was Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434 is talking about?

hym nedeth also a petycote of an overbody of a doublett, his petycote wt oute sleves, ye syses of him 3 quarters aboute wt outen coler

[Signo]

Yesterday I found this, and there is a little innocent detail that could help us:

http://www.historyextra.com/feature/mis ... ry-england

"Elizabeth I also had at least one African in her personal entourage – “a Blackamoore boy”, who is mentioned in a warrant dated 14 April 1574. The warrant states that the queen ordered the clothes-maker Henry Henre to make the African boy a “garcon coat… of white taphata cutt and lyned… striped with gold and silver with buckeram bayes… knitted stockings [and] white shoes”. This boy was employed until at least the following April, when a further warrant granted this “littel black a More” another set of fine clothing."

[MediumAevum]

Carde fabric from the MED
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/m/mec/med ... s=23609193

[James B.]

Yesterday I found this, and there is a little innocent detail that could help us:

http://www.historyextra.com/feature/mis ... ry-england

"Elizabeth I also had at least one African in her personal entourage – “a Blackamoore boy”, who is mentioned in a warrant dated 14 April 1574. The warrant states that the queen ordered the clothes-maker Henry Henre to make the African boy a “garcon coat… of white taphata cutt and lyned… striped with gold and silver with buckeram bayes… knitted stockings [and] white shoes”. This boy was employed until at least the following April, when a further warrant granted this “littel black a More” another set of fine clothing."

Knitted stockings are common in the 16th century I am not sure there is evidence for them in the 15th century. I read a debate on wool vs linen hose a while back where someone translated a 15th century Burgundian nobles wardrobe accounts, said person had 300 pairs of hose in his lifetime and only one was linen, two were silk, no mention of knit at all. However if you look at "Dress at the Court of King Henry VIII" plenty of knit stockings in both silk and wool for Henry; servants got cut wool fabric.

[Signo]

Thank you, I just stumbled into this account, and I found it interesting, my knowledge on hosen and stocking is pretty limited, but I'm greatly interested in finding a satisfacting solution for this problem. (My mother would cry) .. but I want tights!
http://fernrocks.files.wordpress.com/20 ... tights.jpg

[Mac]

(My mother would cry) .. but I want tights!
http://fernrocks.files.wordpress.com/20 ... tights.jpg

Don't tell your mom, Marco. It can just be our little secret.

Mac

[Henrik Granlid]

If you do it with a "kneecop" and a slim femur, could you not also slit it along the tendon at the back? If it is sufficiently tight, and possibly with an "inside overlap flap". You could get your foot in and out with little issue since the thing would bundle up and open up the slit when you start taking it off from the thigh whilst, on the other hand, when everything is pulled taught and pointed to your clothes, the slimfit, inner overlap-flap and tension from going to the knee should, theoretically, keep it closed.



See the attached image:

The red line is the slit
The dotted line is where the "flap" on side A is tucked underneath Side B to close the slit and make it "invisible"

When compressed by taking it off, the slit should open, letting a foot through so that it can reach the calf-section of the hose, if the feet are wider than the calves, let the slit go up to the knee, if they are wider than the knee, go to thigh, if wider than thigh... seek out your local plague-doctor.

[Tailoress]

What does the fragments tell us about thread size? Why do you think that only with very thin needles (and thus I suppose thread) you could achieve what they were portraying? Sorry if they appear silly questions.

Do you have the Museum of London Textiles & Clothing book? There is at least one example in there, but I don't have it handy at the moment to give you further detail. There is also a book called A History of Hand Knitting by Richard Rutt. As for needle size, generally the smaller the needle and yarn, the smaller the knit stitches. This allows you to create a fine, smooth surface and a close-fitting pair of hosen which don't bulk out the legs. Mind you, I'm not a knitter, so my knowledge is not deep on this subject in the least.

The questions aren't silly!

[Ernst]

Since we know the "cord" hose are lined with linen, and both are cut on the bias, I don't see how this particular example could be knit. Could a possible seam below the knee be obscured by the common garter?

[Mac]

Since we know the "cord" hose are lined with linen, and both are cut on the bias, I don't see how this particular example could be knit.

I think that's right, Ernst. It seems pretty likely that our author was talking about a woven fabric, rather than a knit.

Could a possible seam below the knee be obscured by the common garter?

The common garter is not that common, really. It's one of those things that we all "know" they wore, but they don't show up in art very often. I think it's safe to say that women used garters all the time to hold up their knee length hosen, but men used them only when they expected to have their hosen rolled down.

Mac

[Colin Middleton]

I did a bit of looking into a similar statement about the hosen in the Hastings manuscript. They are made of a woolen fabric called stamin, which is apparently rather like corduroy both in appearance and in toughness, perfect for arming hosen. This would then have the strength to easily hold up the mail gussets. However, such a fabric is going to have limited stretch, so you will have problems bending your legs. The solution to that was obviously to slash th front of the knew so that when the leg is bent, the gap opens up to allow movement. There is a picture from the 16th C in Bruge showing such hosen. This would then lead to the polyen being uncomfortable on the knew however, which is obviously why the Hastings manuscript thenwraps the knew in blanket (a softer fabric).

What are 'panzerhozen' and what century were they known from?

Oh and by the way, "hello".

Colin

[Henrik Granlid]

They're discussed in an attatched link =)

14th and 15th century would seem to be their time.

They are pretty much a tiny brick-pattern of metal plates sewn into hosen individually, the principle being pretty much the same as sliding plastic pieces into your low-padded cuisses to try to get extra protection.

[MediumAevum]

I did a bit of looking into a similar statement about the hosen in the Hastings manuscript. They are made of a woolen fabric called stamin, which is apparently rather like corduroy both in appearance and in toughness, perfect for arming hosen.

Why do you believe stamin to be a woolen fabric as opposed to a linnen fabric?