Traytese of the Poyntes of Worship in Armes 1434

[Colin Middleton]

I did a bit of looking into a similar statement about the hosen in the Hastings manuscript. They are made of a woolen fabric called stamin, which is apparently rather like corduroy both in appearance and in toughness, perfect for arming hosen.

Why do you believe stamin to be a woolen fabric as opposed to a linnen fabric?

I asked Ruth Gilbert, as she has a phd in historic textiles.

Colin

[MediumAevum]

I asked Ruth Gilbert, as she has a phd in historic textiles.

Should always ask for the reference when you turn to a person. As it is definitely not a woolen fabric.
Promptorium Parvulorum a English-Latin dictionary from c1440 refers to it as 'linistema' which would seem to mean linnen warped so at best it is a blend.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/m/mec/med ... =192580804

[Ernst]

Another corded fabric is grosgrain, usually associated with ribbons, which often appears in formalwear. Like corduroy it is primarily known for it's strength.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grosgrain

[Tailoress]

Since we know the "cord" hose are lined with linen, and both are cut on the bias, I don't see how this particular example could be knit. Could a possible seam below the knee be obscured by the common garter?

Just for the record, I'm not making a case for this particular description being knitted -- I was responding more to the generalized question of whether knitted hose might have been possible/common in the 14th/15thc. I do agree that it's very unlikely in this case and people have made good arguments for other types of cloth.

[Tom B.]

I think only a good picture non scanned from a medium quality print could tell.

Here is the best I could do, the scanner resolution exceeds that of the print in the book.
(click on pics to go to slightly higher resolution)

[James B.]

You see the same shading in the Devenshire Hunting Tapestry, only better done, I don't think it's indicating anything special about the knees just the skill of the weaver to blend colors.

http://www.vam.ac.uk/__data/assets/imag ... ail_01.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... roject.jpg

[Tom B.]

You see the same shading in the Devenshire Hunting Tapestry, only better done, I don't think it's indicating anything special about the knees just the skill of the weaver to blend colors.

http://www.vam.ac.uk/__data/assets/imag ... ail_01.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... roject.jpg

I agree.
I saw several other tapestries with similar shading while looking for those images to scan.

[Mac]

It would be a bit disappointing to think that we were looking at a shading convention of tapestry weavers, but if that's the only place we see it, then that might just be all there is to it.

Mac

[Ernst]

I wonder if we're looking in the right place for images. This is for a trial by combat, a judicial duel (even if armored). The hose without feet harkens back to this Sachsenspiegel image from a century before showing a judicial combat.
http://digital.lb-oldenburg.de/ihd/cont ... iew/192497

Might the cut at the knee be a long-standing vestigial tradition, like the footless hosen, for judicial combat?

[Tom B.]

Talhoffer 1443 edition?
Are these full length doublets with mail sleeves, cloth doublets with contrasting colors, or sleeveless.
I am thinking probably just contrasting color cloth doublets.

[Ernst]

Contrasting cloth seems the norm in the 1459 edition. There are some similar parti-hose as well.

DKB Thott.290.2º fo011r (320x310).jpg (97.67 KiB) Viewed 14323 times

[Vermillion]

Ernst, is that a painting?

The reason I ask is that I've been studying the famous woodcuts of the start of the 16th century, many from around 1500 to 1525 ish. Some earlier.

Many copies of those woodcut prints were water colored at a later date by a different artist, sometimes centuries later.

They have a general appearance to the picture you posted.

My point which it has taken me long enough to get too, is that the color could have been added at a much later date by someone who didn't know what the different areas were suppose to represent.

Or it could be a normal painting and I'm totally wrong.

[Ernst]

Manuscript miniature which is painted.
http://www.kb.dk/da/nb/materialer/haand ... 2_290.html
"Overview" on the lower left brings up the thumbnails if you prefer not to go through it page by page, or you can go to page 24 for the specific example. Since one man is wearing all red, another all white, and the example is wearing parti-color, I doubt it's an artistic error.

[Tailoress]

Talhoffer 1443 edition?
Are these full length doublets with mail sleeves, cloth doublets with contrasting colors, or sleeveless.
I am thinking probably just contrasting color cloth doublets.

Definitely contrasting colors in one doublet. We begin to see this regularly in the art by the turn of the 15thc -- though definitely not as the rule; more like the exception. By the mid-15thc, it's a style trend that's at least 50 years old.

If anyone is wondering why I can be so confident, I invite you to make a vest with armholes as massive as seen in Tom B's example above and wear it over a doublet for vigorous physical activity. You will quickly ask yourself, "what purpose could this have possibly served?" And you will come up blank. Might as well put on a mankini over your pants while you are at it.

[Mac]

Let's look at another part of this traytese....

A pair of Rerebraces shitten withinne the plates before wt twi forlockes and behinde wt thre forlocks. A paire of vaunt bras cloos wt voydours of mayle & fretted.

Do we suppose that "shitten" is like "sitting" or like "shut"?

What are the "plates before", within which the rerebraces are "shitten"?

What are these "forlockes"?

What is it about the "paire of vaunt bras cloos wt voydours of mayle" that is "fretted"? Are the close vambraces "fretted", or are the mail voiders "fretted"? ...and what does it mean in this context?

Mac

[Colin Middleton]

"A pair of closed Rebraces within the plates. With two 'forlocks' at the front and three 'forlocks' at the back. A pair of Vambraces, closed with voiders of mail and tied."

Closed clearly means that they enclose the arm, i.e. they're not open on the inside. Tied could mean held on by points, or could mean fastened shut with strap and buckle. The voiders clearly close the gap at the elbow.

Forlocks could mean points, or something else, but I'm not sure what. Could this mean the Rebrace is held by 3 points at the top and 2 at the bottom?

Colin

[Signo]

If we are talking of floating arm harness then it make sense to have attachment point above and below the piece.

[Ernst]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fore-lock

fore·lock2 [fawr-lok, fohr-] Show IPA
noun
1. a pin or flat wedge passed through a hole near the end of a threadless bolt to fasten parts together.

verb (used with object)
2. to fasten by means of a forelock.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Origin:
1275–1325; Middle English forelok. See fore-, lock1

Perhaps fretted means a band of mail at the wrist, though a fetter is simply a binding. Ancient instrument frets are tied rather than inlayed like on a modern guitar. My gut feeling is that fretted simply means bound with rope or cord.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=fret

fret (n.) Look up fret at Dictionary.com "ornamental interlaced pattern," late 14c., from Old French frete "interlaced work, trellis work," probably from Frankish *fetur or another Germanic source (cf. Old English fetor, Old High German feggara "fetter") perhaps from notion of "decorative anklet," or of materials "bound" together. The other noun, "ridge on the fingerboard of a guitar," is c.1500 of unknown origin but possibly another sense of Old French frete.

[Mac]

Closed clearly means that they enclose the arm, i.e. they're not open on the inside.

Colin

Colin,

I am with you here. I think we are to interpret "close" as "closed". This is the thing that the guys here seem to want to call "cased".... (an expression which sort of makes my teeth itch).

On the other hand, our author only says that the vambrace is closed. He does not specify it of the rerebrace. It's not at all clear where the division between rerebrace and vambrace was in the 1430s. Rerebrace might mean the shoulder defense, and vambrace may include the upper and lower cannons of the arm as well as the elbow.

Mac

[Mac]

If we are talking of floating arm harness then it make sense to have attachment point above and below the piece.

Marco,

I would be surprised if he were talking about a "floating" elbow. In England in the early 15th C. articulated elbows were the norm, and had been since the second half of the 14th C.

Mac

[Mac]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fore-lock

fore·lock2 [fawr-lok, fohr-] Show IPA
noun
1. a pin or flat wedge passed through a hole near the end of a threadless bolt to fasten parts together.

verb (used with object)
2. to fasten by means of a forelock.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Origin:
1275–1325; Middle English forelok. See fore-, lock1

Do you suppose we are meant to see the parts of the armor closed with loose pin hinges? There is evidence for such fasteners in art.

Or, is this even more secure than that? Is he specifying loose pin fasteners with a wedge or cotter to keep the pin from falling out?

Mac

[Ernst]

On the other hand, our author only says that the vambrace is closed. He does not specify it of the rerebrace.

He does however use the plural "plates" for the rerebrace, with forlocks (pinned hinges) before and behind. While not specifically stating that this is enclosed, he has described an enclosed construction.

[Mac]

Perhaps fretted means a band of mail at the wrist, though a fetter is simply a binding. Ancient instrument frets are tied rather than inlayed like on a modern guitar. My gut feeling is that fretted simply means bound with rope or cord.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=fret

fret (n.) Look up fret at Dictionary.com "ornamental interlaced pattern," late 14c., from Old French frete "interlaced work, trellis work," probably from Frankish *fetur or another Germanic source (cf. Old English fetor, Old High German feggara "fetter") perhaps from notion of "decorative anklet," or of materials "bound" together. The other noun, "ridge on the fingerboard of a guitar," is c.1500 of unknown origin but possibly another sense of Old French frete.

"My gut feeling"

Mac

[Mac]

On the other hand, our author only says that the vambrace is closed. He does not specify it of the rerebrace.

He does however use the plural "plates" for the rerebrace, with forlocks (pinned hinges) before and behind. While not specifically stating that this is enclosed, he has described an enclosed construction.

I was playing the Devil's advocate more than anything else. The standard English upper canon was always closed at this time, and had been for decades.

The funny thing about it is this. At about this time we start seeing a change in how the upper cannons are represented in the brasses. It begins to look more like the shoulder defense is equipped with a short closed canon of its own which overlaps the upper cannon of the arm defenses proper. Before this, it looks like the shoulders are a permanent part of the arms.

Here is an example in Sir John Lysle 1425


Any insights into the "shitten" thing?

Mac

[Ernst]

"Shitten" could be related to shut, with vowel changes going hand-in-hand with tense. "Shat" being the... perhaps not the best example? We have smite, smote, smitten in the case of being struck.

EDIT to add this from a conjugation page:
http://www.verbix.com/webverbix/English/shut.html

Shut, v. t. •OE. shutten schutten shetten schitten, AS. scyttan to shut or lock up (akin to D. schutten, G. schützen to protect), properly, to fasten with a bolt or bar shot across, fr. AS. sceótan to shoot.

[Mac]

Perhaps fretted means a band of mail at the wrist, though a fetter is simply a binding. Ancient instrument frets are tied rather than inlayed like on a modern guitar. My gut feeling is that fretted simply means bound with rope or cord.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=fret

Ernst,

What you say reminds me of this portrait by Moroni.
http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/paint ... -gentleman

If you zoom in, you can see that he has some sort of straps wound around the mail at his wrists. They seem to be held by those ubiquitous yet misunderstood hooks that we all have a few of in our collections. I have not figured out a way to crop out that detail and post it.

Mac

[Gustovic]

A-HA!!!
So they DID have baggy sleeves of mail sometimes. =)

[Ernst]

Best view of the Moroni "fetter".

Moroni fetter.jpg (28.5 KiB) Viewed 14247 times

[Ernst]

A-HA!!!
So they DID have baggy sleeves of mail sometimes. =)

You want a BIG mail sleeve? Try this example from Catena.
http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/paint ... the-virgin

Catena BIG mail sleeve.jpg (35.24 KiB) Viewed 14234 times

Catena detail.jpg (29.13 KiB) Viewed 14234 times

So,

A pair of Rerebraces shitten withinne the plates before wt twi forlockes and behinde wt thre forlocks. A paire of vaunt bras cloos wt voydours of mayle & fretted.

"A pair of rerebraces, shut with two removable-pin internal hinges (with pin locks?) in the front, and three pinned hinges in the back. A pair of vambraces with mail voiders inside the elbow, bound shut." Unless someone's got better? Do we see straps on vambraces which are bound?

[Colin Middleton]

Thanks for that Mac, I'd forgotten about the variation in use of rebrace!

I'd read shitten as shut and deduced closed from there.

The bolt and pin forelock is seen on some pieces of armour to hold the pauldrons in place, but I though that was much later. 5 such fastenings seams rather excessive though.

When do those pictures of the mail date from?

Colin

[Mac]

A pair of Rerebraces shitten withinne the plates before wt twi forlockes and behinde wt thre forlocks. A paire of vaunt bras cloos wt voydours of mayle & fretted.

I am concerned about the first part of this. There are different ways the sentence might be broken, which changes the meaning.

It might be "a pair of rerebraces (shitten). Withinne the plates....." That is to say, "a pair of shut rerebraces. Within the plates....", or " a pair of closed rerebraces. Within the plates...."

On the other hand, it could be "a pair of rerebraces shitten within the plates." That is to say, "a pair of rerebraces (which are) shut within the plates." The "plates" here might be the "pair of plates". This might just tell us that there should be no significant gaps between breast and rerebrace, or it might be suggesting one of those sophisticated "gussets of plate" for the armpit.

It might even be "a pair of rerebraces shitten within the plates before." Which might mean "a pair of rerebraces shut within the plates before" If the "plates before" are the upper cannon of the arm defense, than we might be meant to understand that the shoulder armor tucks into the upper cannon of arm defense.

Or, how about this. "a pair of rerebraces. Shitten within the plates (before wt twi forlockes and behind wt three forlocks, a pair of vaunt bras...etc". Broken this way it might mean that the rerebraces are meant to enclose the upper cannon of the arm defense by means of the aforesaid forlocks. This could be interpreted as the arrangement on the Lysle brass.

I am also worried about the arrangement of these "forelocks". I presume that "twi" is "two" (2). and "thre" is "three" (3). If these are all on the same cannon, why is there a different number specified for "before" and "behinde"?

Further, if "forlockes" are some sort of loose-pin fastener, why would a cannon need them both before and behind? Simple hinges would do for one of those locations.

Mac

[Colin Middleton]

While that's quite true Mac from a modern language point of view, most of the Middle English that I've looked at has a recognisable rhythm to it, which several of those interpretations don't match.

Colin

[Bob Charrette]

I am late to the party, but concerning the "cut at the knee" issue, early 15th c. art, such as in some of the Gaston Phoebus hunting book editions, show riders wearing what is likely "houseaux" (coverings for the hosen while riding, possibly usually masse in leather and often mistaken modernly for "high boots.") Said leg coverings are sometimes shown with a semi-circular line like a "U" at the knee. The bottom curve of the possible "cut" is sometimes shown proud of the surface of the rest of the hoseaux, suggesting that it is indeed a cut.

Sorry, but being tech challenged I have trouble getting pictures in.

Bob Charrette
La Belle Compagnie and other stuff

[Tom B.]

Good to see you here Bob.
Thanks for the input, I have seen exactly what you were talking about but had no idea what it was. It may be Monday or Tuesday before I get a chance to round up images.

[Ernst]

With so many copies of Gaston Phebus' Le Livre de la chasse now available online, a manuscript shelf number would be useful. There are a number of copies in the BNF, and one in Geneva that come to mind.