Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscure.
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Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscure.
I seem to remember, years ago, coming across an image, or a couple of images of bascinets with integral nasals - not breteches, but an actual small nasal. It was a pretty obscure source - might have been Spanish, and no later than mid 14th century.
Has anybody familiar with early bascinets seen this image? I can't think of anything extant like it. Help would be appreciated.
Has anybody familiar with early bascinets seen this image? I can't think of anything extant like it. Help would be appreciated.
Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
Rounded skull or pointed?
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Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
Is this the thing you were thinking of, Bob?
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The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
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Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
(EDITED)
Mac,
I presume that's the old Scollard Collection helmet judging from the attribution to L.A. and the "W.S." identifier. I've seen it and other sculptural examples dated to the late 12th century.
http://www.armsandarmourforum.com/forum ... -in-spain/
Mac,
I presume that's the old Scollard Collection helmet judging from the attribution to L.A. and the "W.S." identifier. I've seen it and other sculptural examples dated to the late 12th century.
http://www.armsandarmourforum.com/forum ... -in-spain/
Last edited by Ernst on Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
There seem to be a fair amount of manuscript miniatures in the first half of the 14th showing apparent nasals on rounded bascinets. Here's an example in the Holkham Picture Bible of 1337-1335, BL Add MS 47682 fo.40r.
http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.asp ... 7682_f040r A similar example on a marginal hybrid figure in the Rothschild Canticles at Yale from c.1300, Beinecke MS 404 fo.136v. The Life of St. Denis MSS in the BNF, Fr. 2091 & Fr. 2092 from 1317 have some examples as well.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8 ... /f265.item
http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.asp ... 7682_f040r A similar example on a marginal hybrid figure in the Rothschild Canticles at Yale from c.1300, Beinecke MS 404 fo.136v. The Life of St. Denis MSS in the BNF, Fr. 2091 & Fr. 2092 from 1317 have some examples as well.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8 ... /f265.item
Last edited by Ernst on Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
The 1317 Vie de St. Denis images from the side can be disputed to be the far side of the bascinet rather than a nasal, so I cropped some of the frontal views.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8 ... /f245.item http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8 ... /f253.item Another apparent example from 1335.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b7 ... /f704.item
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8 ... /f245.item http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8 ... /f253.item Another apparent example from 1335.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b7 ... /f704.item
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Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
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Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
Ernst wrote:Rounded skull or pointed?
Either. In example, might there be one as late as mid century? Just curious as to the when and where of the phenomenon. I am glad I am not imagining things.
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Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
Mac wrote:Is this the thing you were thinking of, Bob?
Mac
Awesome Mac! We THINK this is a bascinet, but it might be the remains of the head of one of the Second Doctors early robot adversaries...
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Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
Thanks so much! How late can they be found, Ernst? Yeah, I was thinking with some of the examples posted it could be a normal bascinet with an artist having problems with perspective, but these are good.Ernst wrote:The 1317 Vie de St. Denis images from the side can be disputed to be the far side of the bascinet rather than a nasal, so I cropped some of the frontal views.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8 ... /f245.item http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8 ... /f253.item Another apparent example from 1335.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b7 ... /f704.item
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Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
I suppose nobody has ever tried to reproduce one?
Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
chef,
I don't think I've ever seen one past 1350, but most of my study deals with the 13th c. and drifts into the early 14th. I'm sure Galfrid and others are more familiar with late 14th century sources. Mostly the nasals seem to be on the more rounded skulls prevalent from 1300-1340 or so. There are a few examples past 1350 which seem to come to a point over the nose, but nothing so long as to be a nasal that springs to mind.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4042/11506/
Of course there's the nasal on the barbute-like Irish Lough Henney helmet, but the dating on that is problem enough without trying to classify it.
I don't think I've ever seen one past 1350, but most of my study deals with the 13th c. and drifts into the early 14th. I'm sure Galfrid and others are more familiar with late 14th century sources. Mostly the nasals seem to be on the more rounded skulls prevalent from 1300-1340 or so. There are a few examples past 1350 which seem to come to a point over the nose, but nothing so long as to be a nasal that springs to mind.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4042/11506/
Of course there's the nasal on the barbute-like Irish Lough Henney helmet, but the dating on that is problem enough without trying to classify it.
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Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
Thanks Ernst, I appreciate that. I can see it being less relevant as the bascinet/great helm combination gives way to a preponderance of visored bascinets, like the bretech goes away shortly after mid century. I am interested to see there are both English and French illustrations.
Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
It seems an odd transition to me, to move the nasal from being part of the bascinet to being attached to the aventail as a bretache. BSB Cgm 5 from about 1360 shows several bretaches and klappvisiers, but no nasals.
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Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
Still looking for the elusive, perhaps Spanish, image. Did any of these ring a bell regarding the original image you had in mind, chef? Here's another crude drawing which might show a nasal.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4566/11256/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4566/11256/
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Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
Thanks Ernst! That last one was the one I had remembered.
Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
chef,
You may not need any more examples, but here's another one with lots of odd features. It's from BNF Latin 5286 fo.131v. The manuscript is a grisaille copy of the 1317 St. Denis examples above (Fr. 2091-2092), so it's not uncommon to find some images which are very similar in layout. This isn't one of them. This miniature is a depiction of the Battle of Tolbiac/Zülpich and shows a "German" soldier with a nasaled-bascinet, scale aventail, and flail. The Latin version is believed to be a copy of the French manuscripts presented in 1317, so may date from 1315-1325.
You may not need any more examples, but here's another one with lots of odd features. It's from BNF Latin 5286 fo.131v. The manuscript is a grisaille copy of the 1317 St. Denis examples above (Fr. 2091-2092), so it's not uncommon to find some images which are very similar in layout. This isn't one of them. This miniature is a depiction of the Battle of Tolbiac/Zülpich and shows a "German" soldier with a nasaled-bascinet, scale aventail, and flail. The Latin version is believed to be a copy of the French manuscripts presented in 1317, so may date from 1315-1325.
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Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
Thanks for that, Ernst. I am collecting them as they are found. I'm fairly comfortable at this point to say they seem to have existed in the first half of the 14th century in Northern Europe.
Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
The rivets(?) around the lower edge holding the scale aventail are an interesting feature. I've read (Edge?) that aventails start being mentioned on bascinets c. 1330, but wonder if there is earlier documentation.
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Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
I have not seen any but would not surprise me as there seem to be periods with major overlap and it seems by the 1350s the mail hood is on its way out, replaced by the aventail.
RPM
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Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
Richardson mentions an aventail in Fleet's receipt of armor from Edward II, BL Add MS 60584 fo.13r dating from 1325-1327, when Fleet took office to when Edward was deposed.
The fact that the aventail was already worn out and rusted seems to show a possible origin a few years before, but the fact that most of these early inventories are primarily for the king and his household doesn't prove widespread adoption. I'll continue to
presume anything between 1280-1320 is a bascinet over coif rather than aventail.
The fact that the same inventory lists more coifs than aventails is also noted:one aventail worn out and rusty,
six mail coifs (tenis pro guerra);
The fact that the aventail was already worn out and rusted seems to show a possible origin a few years before, but the fact that most of these early inventories are primarily for the king and his household doesn't prove widespread adoption. I'll continue to
presume anything between 1280-1320 is a bascinet over coif rather than aventail.
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Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
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Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
Are you thinking about having one made Bob, or is this for a research project?
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Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
Well, I asked for the earliest aventail on record. Blair gives it as an amazing date of 1266 belonging to the Count of Nevers.RandallMoffett wrote:I have not seen any but would not surprise me as there seem to be periods with major overlap and it seems by the 1350s the mail hood is on its way out, replaced by the aventail.
RPM
A quick search for the original language brings this record, dated to the death in 1266 of Odo, Count of Nevers.Claude Blair wrote:As early as c. 1260 it had apparently become the
practice to replace the coif by a mail tippet—like a coif with the top
removed—attached to the inside of the helmet. The de Nevers inventory
of 1266, for example, includes i bacinnet à gorgière de fer which, at
this early date, can hardly have been anything other than a cervellière
with a mail tippet attached to it and hanging down to protect the neck.
https://archive.org/stream/mmoiresdelas ... g_djvu.txt
I'm not sure if I agree with Blair that the iron gorget must be some sort of aventail.Vii. Item; C'est de Farmeure : ii paires de
cuiraces nueves; viii frains nues; et i mors de
frain; viii paire d'esperons nues; xi varengles
nueuves; iiii cotes à armer, et iii barnières; ii
coutiaus et iiii fers de glaive ; ii fracoîres * nueves;
ii testières à cheval, et i picière, et une paire de
cuissiaus et de trumelières de fer ; i bacinnet à
gorgière de fer ; i ganbaison ; unes couvertures
blanches; i petit ganbaison sanz manches; ii
pîaus blanches ; une paire de coffres ; une grant
gorgière de fer; une maie de cur, et ii paire de
bouges; i bahu et i bast;
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Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
The integral nasal then makes a reappearance in the 15th century, vis. certain of the Venetian sallets from Chalcis: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gorekun/6 ... 9067618754
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Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
I see what you did there =Pchef de chambre wrote:Awesome Mac! We THINK this is a bascinet, but it might be the remains of the head of one of the Second Doctors early robot adversaries...
Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
I'm not sure what the story is on this Bashford Dean example in the Met, which has been cut down. (9 images available)
http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the ... arch/23239
http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the ... arch/23239
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Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
Almost certainly cut down as one of the Chalcis style great bascinets. It came from Chalcis but is is is among the earliest helmets that survive from that site.
Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
Another miniature, from the British Library, Add MS 10294 fo.59v, dated to 1316 by an inscription, St. Omer or Tournai, France.
http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.asp ... 0294_f059v
http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.asp ... 0294_f059v
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Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
In 1369 Datini's botega in Avignon carried nasals for oldfashioned bascinets worth 1 1/2 pence each (nasali da bacinetto all'antica: d. 1 1/2 l'uno). They do not seem to have been a success as they are absent from later inventories. Datini carried a lot of the things which show up in pictures of common soldiers and villainous persecutors but not in effigies and images of armed saints.
Edit: One of the headpieces on the Pistoia altarpiece has the same faceted appearance with vertical creases as "this Bashford Dean example in the Met."
Edit: One of the headpieces on the Pistoia altarpiece has the same faceted appearance with vertical creases as "this Bashford Dean example in the Met."
DIS MANIBUS GUILLELMI GENTIS MCLEANUM FAMILIARITER GALLERON DICTI
VIR OMNIBUS ARTIBUS PERITUS
Check out Age of Datini: European Material Culture 1360-1410
VIR OMNIBUS ARTIBUS PERITUS
Check out Age of Datini: European Material Culture 1360-1410
Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
Sean, Do you think these are what we now call a bretache?
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Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
I am not sure that I know that term.
They could be those detachable nasals which hook onto the helmet above and the camail below. The two things which bother me are all'antica (in the Roman style or in the old style?) and the low price. The money of Provence was worth about 1/8 as much as English with the same denomination in the '60s, so 1.5d Provençal is about the price of a very bad, very small knife (~ a quarter of an English penny). I would have thought that one of those wide detachable nasals cost a bit more, but they did not need any steel and did not need to be polished on the inside or hilted so maybe.
They could be those detachable nasals which hook onto the helmet above and the camail below. The two things which bother me are all'antica (in the Roman style or in the old style?) and the low price. The money of Provence was worth about 1/8 as much as English with the same denomination in the '60s, so 1.5d Provençal is about the price of a very bad, very small knife (~ a quarter of an English penny). I would have thought that one of those wide detachable nasals cost a bit more, but they did not need any steel and did not need to be polished on the inside or hilted so maybe.
DIS MANIBUS GUILLELMI GENTIS MCLEANUM FAMILIARITER GALLERON DICTI
VIR OMNIBUS ARTIBUS PERITUS
Check out Age of Datini: European Material Culture 1360-1410
VIR OMNIBUS ARTIBUS PERITUS
Check out Age of Datini: European Material Culture 1360-1410
Re: Bascinet question for 14th century scholars of the obscu
Randall has frequently mentioned the Register of the Black Prince.
1358, fo.141r
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id= ... up;seq=254
To Sir Baldwin Buttord a bascinet with a nasal.
1358, fo.141r
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id= ... up;seq=254
To Sir Baldwin Buttord a bascinet with a nasal.
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