Mail Bevor Suspension?

[Ernst]

I know this topic has come up several times before on various forums. Mac had once asked the question of how these mail bevors were held up or attached. I'm wondering if they were sewn to a cloth cap, like his mail sleeves on a jacket thread, or if they are not, in fact, aventails like the example at the Deutsches Historisches Museum, Berlin (even if it is not original to the bascinet)? I suspect these were designed to be worn with kettle hats, sallets, or some other open face helm, but what would they have been attached to in order to keep them up? Do we have any visual sources showing the ventail in conjuction with anything besides a mail coif?



The everted Churburg mail bevor CH S1:

And Carlo Paggiarino's photo showing the flap and closure on the correct side, after Chris Smith of the Royal Armouries discovered the error in the method of display.

Churbug CH S1.jpg

Oleg Naumov's photographs of the one in the Philadelphia Museum of Art:
http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php? ... mage=12190

http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php? ... mage=12191


And two examples in the Metropolitan Museum of Art
http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the ... arch/34827

http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the ... arch/34828

[chef de chambre]

I would GUESS it would be padded (fairly stiff in construction), and have a strap and buckle closure or lace shut like a normal standard/gorgerin of mail. That is where I would start a reconstruction.

[chef de chambre]

Let me add some thoughts. A stiff, shaped padding would retain the basic shape enough, that with a couple of straps, or laces, the bevor would sit as it needs to, while loosening same would allow for it to be lowered, for the comfort of the wearer, so it would be a bearable defense to wear long enough to be useful, if that makes any sense.

Were I not in my current financial position, I would be willing to have Erik D. Schmid make a copy, and make a speculative reconstruction of the system.

[Konstantin the Red]

This mail defense of throat and neck I would call a ventail.

[chef de chambre]

Except a 'ventaglia' in 15th century Italian armour parlance is a reference to the abbreviated visor of an 'elmetto' (armet)

[Dan Howard]

Padding makes sense. I can't think of any other use for the edging around the ventails in illustrations such as the Bayeux Tapestry except to help secure a lining.

[Ernst]

I'm not convinced that padding would be sufficient to hold the mail up, especially when the ventail was unfastened. I could be wrong. Is there no visual source of these things in use?

[chef de chambre]

I see no ventail in most examples to be unfastened. It is a mail bevor. Many seem to have the gorget area carry round the whole of the neck. If you imagine the object in question to be a padded collar with a bit over the lower face, which is then covered in a layer of mail, I think you could see how it could work. Multiple straps are common on standards, I don't see how the chin cup makes for something unsupportable by such a system. When I am talking about 'relief', I am thinking loosening the straps supporting the chin piece allowing it to be lowered, even as the lames on a multi-part bevor lower with a pin.

[Ernst]

I see no ventail in most examples to be unfastened. It is a mail bevor.

The one in Philadelphia is unclear to me, as there is a sizeable amount of damage, and I'm not sure what the leather strap on the wearer's left side is for. The DHM "aventail/camail" is clear enough. (I think the general consensus is that this bevor has been repurposed in modern times, so the lining is suspect.)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipila ... 3206917520
The Churburg fastening chain is clear, if the attachment is showing? The second Met example has a clear clasp on the wearer's right as well.

[chef de chambre]

Perhaps you could provide a different view of the MET examples, because I'm not seeing what is clearly a clasp. In any case, the type of padding I am envisioning is akin to a standards collar - it is fairly stiff, and would have a shape, and ventail like the Churburg example or not, it could easily retain the shape, when buckled or laced in place on the wearers neck.

[Ernst]

Unfortunately, the Met example isn't on display, and they only have the one photograph available online (which is a better situation than 90% of the mail in collections). Here's a cropping from the image.

MET 27.183.2-clasp.jpg (77.71 KiB) Viewed 919 times

[Tom B.]

Is there no visual source of these things in use?

There are some in the Thun Sketchbook, I will dig out some images tomorrow.

[Ernst]

Thanks Tom. See you this weekend at Wade's?

[Tom B.]

Thanks Tom. See you this weekend at Wade's?

I will be there.

[chef de chambre]

Unfortunately, the Met example isn't on display, and they only have the one photograph available online (which is a better situation than 90% of the mail in collections). Here's a cropping from the image.

MET 27.183.2-clasp.jpg

Cool, Thanks. So there is on the one example (bottom), but we can't see on the second (The one immediately above)?

[Tom B.]

Aforementioned Thun Sketchbook Images:

[Tom B.]

Ernst,

Do you use Pinterest?
Have you seen this collection of mail images?
European Mail Armour

[Ernst]

Yes, I follow several of Eric's boards.

Unfortunately the Thun images still leave me in doubt as to how the mail is being held up. Do you think these sallets(?) are being worn with the mail "bevor", or is it fastened like mail to an armet? It's hard to imagine it might still be a full mail coif at this late date, though there is the peculiar brass of William Molyneux (obit 1548) in St. Helen's Church, Sefton, Lancashire.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/52219527@N00/8299646735

On the south side of the chancel is a floor-slab with the brass figures of Sir William Molyneux and his two wives, Jane (Rudge) and Elizabeth (Clifton), 1548. The inscription records his feat of capturing two standards at Flodden, and over his head is the Molyneux shield with the standards above it—only one being now perfect, that of Huntly, with its motto or cry 'Clanc tout.' Above each of the wives was a lozenge with heraldry, one only being now left, and below the inscription a shield with Molyneux with ten alliances, and the motto 'En droit devant.' The figure of Sir William is in armour of the time, with the curious exception that the head is covered with a coif of mail, and the lower part of a hauberk shows above the knees. It is possible, as has been already suggested elsewhere, that the figure represents his actual appearance at Flodden, in old armour hastily chosen from among the suits at Sefton on the sudden alarm of war.

[chef de chambre]

The Thun images lack detail as to closure. It is hard to say what they specifically are representing, but you don't end up with a tailored shape like that from the suspended sort of arrangement of an aventail.

[Ernst]

Unfortunately, the Met example isn't on display, and they only have the one photograph available online (which is a better situation than 90% of the mail in collections). Here's a cropping from the image.

The attachment MET 27.183.2-clasp.jpg is no longer available

Cool, Thanks. So there is on the one example (bottom), but we can't see on the second (The one immediately above)?

Bob,

I can see the division in the mail for the ventail flap, but don't see any sort of clasp on the first one. It appears the upper edge is nailed or pinned to the manikin at the nose, which explains how it's currently being held upright.
http://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/a ... _69950.jpg

MET 27.183.1-nail.jpg (80.33 KiB) Viewed 870 times

It seems to me that dating is of interest. There's a bit of time covered between the Churburg example and the Thun Sketchbook.

[chef de chambre]

Right, but again, ventail or no ventail, were a speculative reconstruction made of a fairly stiff padded bevor, that this would then be stitched to, and a closure of multiple straps, or points, it could still physically retain its shape as a bevor.

[Ernst]

We do have those peculiar lower edges in the Thun examples which might be interpreted as some sort of liner edge.

[Tom B.]

Yes, I follow several of Eric's boards.

Unfortunately the Thun images still leave me in doubt as to how the mail is being held up. Do you think these sallets(?) are being worn with the mail "bevor", or is it fastened like mail to an armet?

At least two of the images have that unusual second row of rivets on the sallets.
My guess is that these are for attaching the mail.

[chef de chambre]

Interestingly, a number of extant sallet have more than one row of rivets, and they appear in art with sallets worn with normal bevors, clearly not intended to be worn with mail bevors. This little sallets in the Thun sketchbook are fairly rare in represented art, as are mail bevors - I wonder if they represent the sort of helmet intending to be worn with a mail bevor. Come to think of it, outside of the Thun sketchbook, I can't recollect off the top of my head any mail bevors depicted, although I can think of at least one late 15th century source showing mail leggings as depicted.

So, what depictions are there of mail bevors in art outside of the Thun sketchbook?

[Ernst]

The problem with focusing on this type of sallet is the dating for the Churburg example being late 14th century. How can we tell if the high mail shown in conjuction with kettle hats isn't a bevor, or were full coifs still in use by 1450?
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4936/14847/

[chef de chambre]

There are a number of full coifs seen worn with sallets and kettlehats in the first volume of the Chronicle of Hainault, from the same date (and better art).

[Jason Grimes]

The links on these, at least the the parts that cover the face, neck and chest, are very heavy and thick. You can see on some of them that the links are all sitting straight in their rows because they are so tight they can't rotate. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them couldn't stand up on their own with out much support. Add in a liner like Chef suggests and I doubt that they would have much problem keeping it in place and not falling over. It would require a fairly tight fit around the neck to make it work I think?

Having them attach to a helmet would work too, that is a very interesting idea.

Jason

[Ernst]

Resurrecto --

Since Caius705 brought up the topic on Combat and Weapons
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=175463

BSB Cgm 1507, fo. 12r, Bavarian 1450-1479.

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/bsb ... 0/image_27

BSB Cgm 1507 fo012r.jpg (12.57 KiB) Viewed 710 times

Are these laces through the brim or a filigree coronet?

[Konstantin the Red]

Such a coronet would be too vulnerable, and such of the armor as we can see doesn't look to be a noble's stuff, nor indeed any sort of horseman's. I'd say laces.