Question on mens 14th C. Cotehardie doublet and hose

[Swiss_pike]

I am going to be making some clothing for my late 14th c. "1374-1386 to be exact" impression and I have a few questions.

Whats would they have worn under the cotehardie? I see that most agree it would have been an early doublet that would have come lower than the 15th century version and the hosen would have been pointed to the doublet. If this is so does some one have a source for this because I have read it in books but have not seen a example of it in the artwork. I see some people just have the cotehardie over the shirt.
I have also seen the hosen tied to a girdle or the underpants. What would have been historical for this time? I know that around the 1370-1380 the hosen changed a little in how they would have been kept up and the shape at the waist as well. Once again this brings me to the question of the doublet. I just can't find a clear information source that is backed up by historical proof of how this all would have gone together.

If some once could please clear up this mess for me or point me in the correct direction it would be most helpful. I am trying to do my impression as close as I can get it to historically accurate because it just bothers me deep inside my soul when I know its not accurate. I am sure some of you suffer from this obsession and I look forward to being set on the correct path.

[Konstantin the Red]

What goes under the cotehardie would be a shirt, and this usually of white linen. A doublet is an outer garment, like the cotehardie. Have a couple of shirts; these functioned as undershirts do in the modern era, and their purpose was about that generically functional.

I guess you'll want to figure out if you're doing conjoined hose, separate hose, or a couple of each. Braies underneath either.

The big difference between 14th century and 15th, and modern, at the foundational level is the nether garment. Pantaloon-derived modern pants, and knee breeches, were in their times innovations. Previously men's legwear was this multipart assembly of netherstocks interacting in a couple different ways with trunkhose. It took some time and I think maritime innovation to make long trousers, somewhat or even very loose at the hems, general wear, resulting in the modern silhouette.

That, and abandoning "cut in quarters" tailoring.

[Tailoress]

Hi Swiss pike,

When you say "cotehardie", are you thinking of a close-fitting garment of a short nature with buttons on the center closure? If so, I would go with a simpler lace-up version of that underneath. We do have pictorial examples of men being helped out of top-layer garments with a laced-up doublet (or whatever you wish to call the garment) underneath. We know they pointed hosen to the braies girdle earlier in the 14thc too, as you mention. The thing that would be just the trick is a vest (what some folks have called pourpoints, but that's not the right term for it -- it means something else; unfortunately I don't know what to call the vest garment in period terminology). You would then wear a shirt, a vest (to which the hosen are pointed), and then your cotehardie. But, I can't solidly prove the vest was the solution used. If someone can, that would be awesome!

Then there is the Charles de Blois pourpoint, clearly a "cotehardie" if ever there were one, which has all the lacing points around the hip line, strongly indicating hosen were tied directly to it. I know from experience that on an unpadded/quilted garment this is unfeasible for the most part. The weight of the hosen pulling down on the points causes unsightly gouges in the fabric where the point are sewn on. However, in a stiffer, more structured garment that's been padded and quilted, it might make sense.

The bottom line is that any of these options -- pointing to the braies girdle, pointing to another fitted garment underneath, or pointing directly to the cotehardie, as long as it's sturdy enough and well-fitted enough around the hips to take it -- would be perfectly acceptable solutions in lieue of hard proof one way or the other.

What I don't think was likely was a separate belt just for the hosen.

Regards,
Tasha

I am going to be making some clothing for my late 14th c. "1374-1386 to be exact" impression and I have a few questions.

Whats would they have worn under the cotehardie? I see that most agree it would have been an early doublet that would have come lower than the 15th century version and the hosen would have been pointed to the doublet. If this is so does some one have a source for this because I have read it in books but have not seen a example of it in the artwork. I see some people just have the cotehardie over the shirt.
I have also seen the hosen tied to a girdle or the underpants. What would have been historical for this time? I know that around the 1370-1380 the hosen changed a little in how they would have been kept up and the shape at the waist as well. Once again this brings me to the question of the doublet. I just can't find a clear information source that is backed up by historical proof of how this all would have gone together.

If some once could please clear up this mess for me or point me in the correct direction it would be most helpful. I am trying to do my impression as close as I can get it to historically accurate because it just bothers me deep inside my soul when I know its not accurate. I am sure some of you suffer from this obsession and I look forward to being set on the correct path.

[Gregoire de Lyon]

Tasha -

Is your disbelief in the belt system because of the date or the general feasibility? This Thread shows examples, both recreated and in period artwork of separate belts being used to hold up hosen/chausses.

[Swiss_pike]

Hello Tasha,

Thank you for the reply to be hones it always seems you come in and save the day. So thanks once again for explaining what it is I am after.

When I say cotehardie I am in fact referring to the garment you described.

So you are of the opinion that the hosen would have been pointed to the unterhosen/underpants with points or a braise gerdle? I seem to follow this way of thinking as well it is more of a personal choice. This works for me and we know that this is how they would have done it in the earlier times so then it just makes sense they would have done it a bit later as well.

You also think that the first foundation garment call it a catehardie or a early doublet would have a lace up front. This is what I was thinking as well. I have a few books and they refer to that being a characteristic element of the early doublet or cotehardie. I have also seen that some of the "cotehardies" have short sleeves and am wondering would they have had two layers of them? So shirt 1st cotehardie/doublet with long sleeves and then 2nd cotehardie with short sleeves and streamers and fabric buttons? if this is so what would have been the differences in the 1st and 2nd cotehardie? As I am doing the 1370-1390 I know that they came a bit lower the later it got in the century so would they be the same with the 2nd being a bit longer then?

As far as the Charles de Blois pourpoint I think it could well have had the hosen pointed to it as you said. I however at the moment am trying to deal first with non military clothing and then deal with military matters next. On the other hand they did tend to mimic one another quite a bit so answering one may lead to the answer of the other.

If you have a example of the art you were talking about I would love to see it as I plan on starting in the next week or so and would love to have some solid visual examples to go off of.

Best Regards David

[Karen Larsdatter]

A bit later, but it shows the cote being worn directly over a shirt. On the other hand, he is a farmer.


British Library Harley 4431, fol. 115v, c. 1410-1414

[Swiss_pike]

A bit later, but it shows the cote being worn directly over a shirt. On the other hand, he is a farmer.


British Library Harley 4431, fol. 115v, c. 1410-1414

Thanks

[Tailoress]

Tasha -

Is your disbelief in the belt system because of the date or the general feasibility? This Thread shows examples, both recreated and in period artwork of separate belts being used to hold up hosen/chausses.

I confess, I had not read that thread cover-to-cover until you pointed it out just now...

From what I gather, we're still in the speculation phase when it comes to using a separate belt, other than the belt for the braies (the braies girdle). Yes, there is a statue from the mid 15th century showing a child wearing split hosen attached directly to a wide belt, no braies in evidence. This is a strong hint, but not really proof, as was discussed on that thread. I like Mac's full demonstration of that solution -- braies and then a separate belt for the hosen, slung low on the hips, overlapping where the braies belt would go -- but as he said in so many words, it's speculation (heck, educated speculation is as good as we can get on a lot of this stuff.)

I think that when you eliminate a thin draw string (or any thin material that can cut into the flesh) for keeping the braies in place and replace it with a sturdy, wide-enough belt (1-2" wide?), the concept of pinning or tying your hosen to it becomes a lot more tenable and it certainly adheres to the K.I.S. principle.

All that said, however, my mind is not closed to the concept of a separate belt after all, after reading that thread. I think it's a viable theory (tm) and as such, should not be completely ruled out as I did so blithely above.

To summarize, here's what I think: No solid proof for it (yet), but it works in practice, and it's well within the parameters of acceptable experimentation with the facts we do have.

[Tailoress]

Hi David, thanks.

Yes, I do believe a good and comfortable solution would be to run points through the tops of your hosen and then through anchoring points on the braies belt. This would require slits in the braies for access to each anchoring point. Note -- drawstrings don't really allow for this too comfortably, so you could also experiment with a separate belt that lies right on top of the top part of the braies, as was pointed out to me above and in that marvelous thread about braies.

Your description of the layers is spot on: shirt, then long-sleeved, lace-up coat/doublet, then short-sleeved cote(hardie) with streamers/tippets and buttons on the front closure. You should certainly make the hem of your lace-up coat shorter than the hem of your fancier top coat, as it would be a bit of a fashion faux pas to have the underlayer peeking out, I would guess.

Regarding the Charles de Blois pourpoint -- that is likely not a military garment, at least not in any traditional sense where the wearer would also have armour on. It's a pretty ideal example of the peacetime fashion for men in its time and does not, by its tailoring design, really allow for the wearing of armour over or under it (it's too tight, and too many large buttons everywhere, particularly the arms, where they're not very handy in a battle). Just the same, that doesn't mean you should absolutely adopt that method for attaching your hosen. I really do think it only works well when a) the garment is seriously tight around the hips and b) the garment is thick with padding, and stiff from quilting. Otherwise, the pull of the hosen ruins the line of the garment.

Re: art examples -- which part of the conversation were you wanting images of? Whole outfits like discussed above, or braies with hosen?

Hello Tasha,

Thank you for the reply to be hones it always seems you come in and save the day. So thanks once again for explaining what it is I am after.

When I say cotehardie I am in fact referring to the garment you described.

So you are of the opinion that the hosen would have been pointed to the unterhosen/underpants with points or a braise gerdle? I seem to follow this way of thinking as well it is more of a personal choice. This works for me and we know that this is how they would have done it in the earlier times so then it just makes sense they would have done it a bit later as well.

You also think that the first foundation garment call it a catehardie or a early doublet would have a lace up front. This is what I was thinking as well. I have a few books and they refer to that being a characteristic element of the early doublet or cotehardie. I have also seen that some of the "cotehardies" have short sleeves and am wondering would they have had two layers of them? So shirt 1st cotehardie/doublet with long sleeves and then 2nd cotehardie with short sleeves and streamers and fabric buttons? if this is so what would have been the differences in the 1st and 2nd cotehardie? As I am doing the 1370-1390 I know that they came a bit lower the later it got in the century so would they be the same with the 2nd being a bit longer then?

As far as the Charles de Blois pourpoint I think it could well have had the hosen pointed to it as you said. I however at the moment am trying to deal first with non military clothing and then deal with military matters next. On the other hand they did tend to mimic one another quite a bit so answering one may lead to the answer of the other.

If you have a example of the art you were talking about I would love to see it as I plan on starting in the next week or so and would love to have some solid visual examples to go off of.

Best Regards David

[Gregoire de Lyon]

I've recently switched from pointing my hosen to my braies and now point them to a pourpoint under layer patterned on the CdB pourpoint. I can confidently say that this small change is enough to convince me to keep doing a late 14th century impression. So much more comfortable.

[Tailoress]

I've recently switched from pointing my hosen to my braies and now point them to a pourpoint under layer patterned on the CdB pourpoint. I can confidently say that this small change is enough to convince me to keep doing a late 14th century impression. So much more comfortable.

I think the vest solution is wonderful and everyone who uses it swears by it -- I wish we could get strong proof this was a typical method. It certainly falls within the viable theory (tm) concept I hold so dear.

(Is your vest padded and quilted? If not, it's not a pourpoint. ) I swear, that should be my tagline: "It's not a pourpoint."

[Gregoire de Lyon]

(Is your vest padded and quilted? If not, it's not a pourpoint. ) I swear, that should be my tagline: "It's not a pourpoint."

It's not a vest, it's a CdB style garment. It's not padded and quilted either though, so I have no idea what to call it.

[Swiss_pike]

Hey Tasha,

Thanks for all the info I was wondering if you could show me the art work of the lace up doublet thingy yes I said thingy. Also thanks for the info on that Charles de Blois Pourpoint.

[Swiss_pike]

(Is your vest padded and quilted? If not, it's not a pourpoint. ) I swear, that should be my tagline: "It's not a pourpoint."

It's not a vest, it's a CdB style garment. It's not padded and quilted either though, so I have no idea what to call it.

Hello,

Sounds like you have a nice comfortable set up and wold love to see it if you have a picture or two

Best regards David

[Tailoress]

Hey Tasha,

Thanks for all the info I was wondering if you could show me the art work of the lace up doublet thingy yes I said thingy. Also thanks for the info on that Charles de Blois Pourpoint.

Hi,

I'm in full approval of saying "thingy" when we're not sure what to call it.

I want to help you with this, but now I'm in the midst of packing all my belongings, selling my house, and moving to the Midwest, USA. I should have said that clearly when I first asked for clarification on which pictures you wanted to see, rather than implying I was prepared to show them right away. I'm sorry about that. Most of my research books are already packed, and the few that aren't, will be very soon.

Images which show an outer gown being pulled over the head of a man who is then being stabbed with the business end of something lethal and sharp usually show the laced-up garment he's wearing underneath. (I'm sure this is a common story, either historical or Biblical, and these figures could be named, but I don't know who they are off the top of my head.) Maybe someone else will see this thread, be hip to what I'm talking about, and will post an example.

[Charlotte J]

http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/ConsulterElem ... =1&Param=C

I think this is different than the one you were thinking of, but this is the one I pulled up while looking for the other.

[Karen Larsdatter]

Images which show an outer gown being pulled over the head of a man who is then being stabbed with the business end of something lethal and sharp usually show the laced-up garment he's wearing underneath. (I'm sure this is a common story, either historical or Biblical, and these figures could be named, but I don't know who they are off the top of my head.) Maybe someone else will see this thread, be hip to what I'm talking about, and will post an example.

There's a couple of these stabbity images at http://larsdatter.com/inside-out.htm but none for men c. 1374-1386.

[Galleron]

You may find this relevant to your questions:

http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... -1500.html

[Konstantin the Red]

. . . lace up doublet thingy yes I said thingy. Also thanks for the info on that Charles de Blois Pourpoint.

Because "underBlois" is a little hard to pronounce, and you just know somebody is going to write, or AutoCorrect, it to "underblouse." Having opened this can, I think I need a bigger worm can.

[Galleron]

Hey Tasha,

Thanks for all the info I was wondering if you could show me the art work of the lace up doublet thingy yes I said thingy. Also thanks for the info on that Charles de Blois Pourpoint.

Hi,

I'm in full approval of saying "thingy" when we're not sure what to call it.

I want to help you with this, but now I'm in the midst of packing all my belongings, selling my house, and moving to the Midwest, USA. I should have said that clearly when I first asked for clarification on which pictures you wanted to see, rather than implying I was prepared to show them right away. I'm sorry about that. Most of my research books are already packed, and the few that aren't, will be very soon.

Images which show an outer gown being pulled over the head of a man who is then being stabbed with the business end of something lethal and sharp usually show the laced-up garment he's wearing underneath. (I'm sure this is a common story, either historical or Biblical, and these figures could be named, but I don't know who they are off the top of my head.) Maybe someone else will see this thread, be hip to what I'm talking about, and will post an example.

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/3991/10007/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4211/9980/

Artaxerxes killing Artaban. Who totally deserved it. From Boccaccio's Des cas des nobles hommes et femmes, or The Big Book of Famous People Who Died Horribly When They Least Expected It.

[James B.]

Tasha -

Is your disbelief in the belt system because of the date or the general feasibility? This Thread shows examples, both recreated and in period artwork of separate belts being used to hold up hosen/chausses.

I confess, I had not read that thread cover-to-cover until you pointed it out just now...

From what I gather, we're still in the speculation phase when it comes to using a separate belt, other than the belt for the braies (the braies girdle).

Tasha

Do you have a copy of La Belle's Jamestown documentation booklet? There is a drawing of a section of a braies girdle find in there that is likely too wide to be set into the braies themselves. It also has a broach laced to the belt which is likely how the hose were attached in this case (lots of broaches at the hips in Wisby finds also).

Personally I believe its likely they used a separate belt outside the braies also, though pictorial evidence is lacking at this time outside said statue.

However thanks to the attached thread I and finding better evidence for girdles set in the braies casing.

[Tailoress]

http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/ConsulterElem ... =1&Param=C

I think this is different than the one you were thinking of, but this is the one I pulled up while looking for the other.

That's a good one, Char, because he's pulling off a peacetime garment, not mail, like the guys Galleron found for us on Manuscript Miniatures. (Those are good too, but much better as evidence for "what to wear under mail". I think I was thinking of them originally, but clearly I was conflating martial with peacetime examples.).

Finding broaches in graves at hip level only tells us they were pinned to something at hip level; they don't tell us they were pinned to a separate belt versus one that was inside a channel in the braies. I'd consider that neutral evidence at best -- evidence for the use of broaches, anyway, but not evidence for a separate belt.

I've seen the image of the braies girdle, I believe. Isn't it sprang? Isn't it stretchy? Am I thinking of a different one? In any event, there's no reason a braies channel can't accommodate a wide belt (how wide are we talking though?) I think anyone reading this who's ever used a C-belt in SCA fighting knows the danger of a thin belt. The wider the belt, the more comfortable the weight distribution. It's a great reason to avoid drawstrings. Also, depending on the materials of the girdle versus the braies, the braies, if linen, would most likely have disintegrated, leaving only the belt with broaches still attached. Any sign of the hosen which would have been attached to the broaches?

I haven't seen your Jamestown documentation, no, but if you'd care to share, I'd love to read it.

Like I said, I'm not purely *against* the idea of a seperate belt, but I see it as a more complicated way to go about something that can be gone about with the belt used to hold up the braies.

[Mac]

I think there is an elephant in the room here, and I guess It's my job to introduce him.

One or the problems with attaching the hosen to the the same belt that holds up ones braies is that it drags the braies down. This can be a serious problem.


Guys differ in what they expect and require of their braies... but if my braies end up like this fellow's, it makes me very unhappy.


Yes, I know, this guy holds his hosen up with a doublet.... I just thought that a picture was worth a thousand words. Perhaps we can think of something delicate to call this problem. "Dela Francesca drawers", "Cross-carrier's package", or "the great escape".

Edit.... I'm rejecting "does not contain nuts".

Mac

[Gustovic]

I remember clearly seeing a XIVth century italian fresco with the braies holding the hoses. This braies even had a small belt to keep them on. Picture will come soon, hopefully =).

[Mac]

I am not challenging the idea that attaching the hosen to the same thing that holds up the braies was the most common solution. The evidence is very strong in favor of that. If I could make that work comfortably, I would do it.

Mac

[Galleron]

I am not challenging the idea that attaching the hosen to the same thing that holds up the braies was the most common solution. The evidence is very strong in favor of that. If I could make that work comfortably, I would do it.

Mac

Have you tried a version where what holds the braies up is a belt in the braies casing rather than a simple drawstring? I think that's the typical approach when single point hose is laced to the thing that holds up the braies, and braies supported by a drawstring only happens when the doublet, or something else, holds up the hose.

[Tailoress]

I am not challenging the idea that attaching the hosen to the same thing that holds up the braies was the most common solution. The evidence is very strong in favor of that. If I could make that work comfortably, I would do it.

Mac

Have you tried a version where what holds the braies up is a belt in the braies casing rather than a simple drawstring? I think that's the typical approach when single point hose is laced to the thing that holds up the braies, and braies supported by a drawstring only happens when the doublet, or something else, holds up the hose.

You beat me to the question, Galleron. Exactly what I was wondering too.

[Mac]

Have you tried a version where what holds the braies up is a belt in the braies casing rather than a simple drawstring?

I have not. It's on my list of things to try, but I have not done so yet. I guess it needs to move up the list a bit.

I think that's the typical approach when single point hose is laced to the thing that holds up the braies, and braies supported by a drawstring only happens when the doublet, or something else, holds up the hose.

It may indeed be the typical thing to have a belt, rather than a drawstring, if the braies must support the hosen. It seems like the more we look,the more belts we see. It is not by any means universal, though. Here we can see that St. Sebastian has no trouble supporting his hosen with a drawstring.



Mac

[Galleron]

Have you tried a version where what holds the braies up is a belt in the braies casing rather than a simple drawstring?

I have not. It's on my list of things to try, but I have not done so yet. I guess it needs to move up the list a bit.

I think that's the typical approach when single point hose is laced to the thing that holds up the braies, and braies supported by a drawstring only happens when the doublet, or something else, holds up the hose.

It may indeed be the typical thing to have a belt, rather than a drawstring, if the braies must support the hosen. It seems like the more we look,the more belts we see. It is not by any means universal, though. Here we can see that St. Sebastian has no trouble supporting his hosen with a drawstring.



Mac

Fair enough. I amend "drawstring only happens" to "drawstring mostly happens."

[John Vernier]

For some years I wore my hosen supported by a belt in the braies casing. I used a soft leather belt about 1 1/4" wide. It was a significant improvement over a simple drawstring, but of course much depended on the quality and fit of the hosen, as to whether the whole rig would stay stable and comfortable over time. The belt, being very soft leather, would tend to roll up into a cord if stressed. I always lashed my points over the belt rather than running them through holes punched in the belt, which seemed the only practical way to arrange things for adjustability, but of course having the point cords knotted around the leather only encouraged it to roll up and then start to slip.

[Mac]

Hey John! Nice to see you here!


It looks like you guys are shaming me into trying the belt-in-the casing thing. I have been thinking about lowering the waists on my braies in a effort to shorten the "fall" a bit. Perhaps this is an opportunity for an experiment. If I undo the current drawstring casing and then re-hem wide enough for a belt it will address both issues.

Mac

[Mac]

OK... I have examined this project and concluded that it will not happen before Pennsic this year.

John V,

How did you treat the openings in the belt casing? I am thinking of vertical slits with buttonholing..... One slit over each hip for the hosen, and two in front (a couple of inches apart) for the belt to emerge from.

Mac

[James B.]

Mac I am making mine with several short parts of casing to simplify it.

[Ian L]

Mac I am making mine with several short parts of casing to simplify it.

like wide belt loops?

[Mac]

Mac I am making mine with several short parts of casing to simplify it.

There's an idea!

I look forward to seeing how it works.

Mac