Fingers on mid 14th Gauntlets

[Graham Ashford]

Hello all

I'm just finishing off a pair of gauntlets, mid 14th century northern European and it got me wondering about extant fingers.

Just how many are there out there from this period, the only ones I know of casually, are the Black Prince's that where in his funeral hearse. However these were made specifically for the funeral (I am told).

Are there many other examples? Or are we left pretty much with scraps?



Kindest regards

Graham

[wcallen]

Ripon Cathedral, now in the RA - but they are just plain scales.
Churburg has a couple of cool plates on a thumb.
Black Prince you have already mentioned.

http://www.allenantiques.com/A-236.html

And the same finger with most of the other gadlings we know of that have come up for sale:

http://www.allenantiques.com/images/FingerParts.jpg

I don't own the copper/alloy bits. Someone else got them. There is another one sort of similar to the one on the finger that came up several years ago.

What else is out there? I don't think a lot.

Wade

[Ernst]

The Wisby bits

[Tom B.]

Not extant armour but highly detailed statues.
1340-1345 - 'soldiers at the Holy Sepulchre', Cathédrale, Strasbourg make sure to scroll through the other photos

1350 Freiburg another sleeping guard

[Galleron]

There's this:

https://plus.google.com/photos/11596262 ... 9091930300

[wcallen]

Silly me. Yes. Lots of Wisby bits. They appear to be earlier than the hourglass ones, but probably very well placed to mid century.

The tiny little finger plates don't appear to be a feature of the hourglass ones, but they are very nice examples of lots of fingers of a few different styles. From really boring to very nice.

Wade

[Tom B.]

What extant evidence is there for the "knuckler rider"?
I think they are present on the Black Prince's funerary gauntlets, where else?

[RandallMoffett]

Tom,

Most of those I can think of do not have them but the BP is the one that comes to mind first that do.

RPM

[Tom B.]

Tom,

Most of those I can think of do not have them but the BP is the one that comes to mind first that do.

RPM

What about the ones missing fingers, anything to learn from the rivet holes?

[Graham Ashford]

I tend to use knuckle riders because they work so well, most of the gauntlets I have managed to get a proper look at tend to have the holes on the sides of the knuckles - I have taken this to mean that these are the riveting points for the riders. I tend to use longer ones purely because I like the aesthetic and because when I was taught how to make them I was taught with an 'invisible' knuckle rider; so I use a larger one to get a slightly different look.

Wade, are those finger parts cast? Can you tell at all. I often wonder at the decoration found on them, it doesn't look incised or beaten out.

Here's what I mean by the larger knuckle rider



All the best and thanks for the details.

Graham

[wcallen]

I think that all of the gads in that picture are formed. Mine are iron/steel. So they definitely wouldn't be cast. The copper alloy ones also appear to be formed from sheet.

The work is very clean. I can't tell exactly how it was done. There aren't a lot of tool marks to use as indication of the working method.

Wade

[Graham Ashford]

Another job to learn added to the list

Thanks Wade.

[RandallMoffett]

Tom,

I do look at the holes for sure. I am not sure they are for the rider plates though. Many are too far removed from where they would have to be, but perhaps more important many only have one hole. To me that means palm strap. I have been able to look at several in very good detail, the RA ones I have some very close up pictures and was able to get some time really examining them for example.

I have no doubt they allow for good movement and was used but I really do not think it was a universal feature.

RPM

[Tom B.]

A good collection of photos is available at Dimitry Nelson's Google Plus Gauntlet Page

[Andeerz]

Oh! Here is a paper detailing some leather fingers for finger gaunts if anyone is interested! Czech it out!!!

www.elpenbeen.nl/gloves%20&%20mittens.pdf

:3 What ya think?

[Ernst]

Andeerz,

That leather finger from Statenplein is delightfully ingenious. Weird too, but a really neat, obscure find. I like it. At about an inch wide, I wonder if it was supposed to get some curvature to wrap around the top of the finger.

The link for the associated "bazuband" leather vambraces from Statenplein:
http://www.elpenbeen.nl/vambrace.pdf

P.S. I think you found a very good pair of articles!

[Mac]

Oh! Here is a paper detailing some leather fingers for finger gaunts if anyone is interested! Czech it out!!!

http://www.elpenbeen.nl/gloves%20&%20mittens.pdf

:3 What ya think?

Astonishing! It's an intriguing glimpse at what real leather armor was. Who could have guessed?


On a practical note; it does not seem like the fingers could have been hardened per se, or the joints would not have been flexible. I wonder if it would be possible to get around that by stuffing the joint areas with oils or greases and then hardening with moist heat or resins.....

Even if/when the joints fail (like the first one has) the leather lining glove would continue to keep the thing together. Perhaps that is sufficient.

I hope that folks will try to reproduce these. They might turn out to be just the thing for sparring with wooden wasters.

Mac

[Mac]

The link for the associated "bazuband" leather vambraces from Statenplein:
http://www.elpenbeen.nl/vambrace.pdf

I am glad that someone in academia has finally noticed that that object is a vambrace. I remember seeing it in Purses In Pieces and being astonished that Goubitz did not recognize what he had.

Mac

[Mac]

At about an inch wide, I wonder if it was supposed to get some curvature to wrap around the top of the finger.

I would expect some curvature. I think it would fit better that way. There's only one way to find out, though....

Mac

[wcallen]

I agree with Mac on all points. And they do seem interesting to recreate. Depending on whether you could selectively harden, they might not be "the thing" for SCA, but they could be great for HEMA or cut and thrust. I know, HEMA makes no attempt to use old fashioned gear, but maybe these would look modern enough that they wouldn't notice.

Wade

[Ernst]

Although I would be willing to see a reproduction made with a single or double layer of felt between leather and glove, I regrettably don't see how these could meet SCA regulations.

Quotes from SCA Marshal's Handbook, individual kingdoms might be more restrictive.

3. A gauntlet of heavy leather lined with .5 inch (12 mm) of closed-cell foam or heavy padding.

The actual finger is about 5 mm thick, and meets the SCA definition for "heavy leather".

Heavy leather: stiff, oak-tanned leather nominally 11/64 inch (.171875 inch or 4.4 mm) thick. This is referred to as 11 ounce leather.

I don't see how you could fit something as bulky as .5"/12 mm closed-cell foam beneath it and keep it functional. Although the SCA doesn't define "heavy padding" as an equivalent, I would presume it must be more than their definition of "padding".

Padding: quilted or multi-layered cloth material, such as mattress pads, moving pads, carpet, felt, or equivalent

How many multi-layers of felt would be deemed "heavy" would be a subjective call falling to local marshals, I think.

[wcallen]

Rule lawyering like that (which marshalls do all the time) is one reason I don't expect this to be viable for the SCA.

But for other things, where some sanity might prevail. Could be interesting.

Who wants to give it a try?

Wade

[Ernst]

The figure 2 finger certainly looks to have some shaping to the knuckle round, so some water forming was done if not an attempt to harden.

(I reported to Glen K suggesting the leather gauntlet portions of this be moved or duplicated to Interpretive Re-creation for further discussion.)

[Mac]

I am torn about what I think the likely method of cutting the semicircles was. On one hand they are pretty regular, and that suggests that a punch might have been used. On the other hand, the semicircles are (on the first finger) larger on the outside than they are on the inside. That speaks more of skillful knife work than punches.

The other thing worth noting is that on both examples there are notches in the flesh side to thin the leather at the hinge points.

Can someone skilled in geekcraft figure out a way to copy those images here? I would do it, but I don't know how to pull them out of the PDF.

Mac

[Mac]

I know, HEMA makes no attempt to use old fashioned gear, but maybe these would look modern enough that they wouldn't notice.

Wade

I can't believe you just said that...

Mac

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Here you go, Mac.

Figure 1

Figure I.jpg (52.05 KiB) Viewed 1281 times

Figure 2

Figure 2.jpg (65.55 KiB) Viewed 593 times

Figure 3

Figure 3.jpg (16.31 KiB) Viewed 593 times

[Mac]

You made that look easy, KI!

Can you explain it to me in simple words?

Mac

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Yessir.

If you have Adobe Acrobat Pro, you can simply select the images, right click, and save them as jpegs, then attach them here in the usual manner.

If you have Adobe Reader, you can try to copy and paste the image into a program like Paint or Photoshop, then save as an image and attach here. However, this file won't let you copy the images out if you open it with just Reader...whoever created the file disabled that feature in the permissions.

[Mac]

Thanks, KI!

I don' have Adobe Acrobat Pro, so I guess I am stuck.

Mac

[Ernst]

If you've saved the article in pdf, you can go to edit and take a snapshot, then save as a jpg or bmp.

[Ernst]

Since the the article says the semicircles are punched, I deleted my earlier questions. But looking at the inside photo and considering Mac's comments, I think they look like a beveled cut as well. Perhaps a sharpened, tapered punch (section of cone) was driven at an angle? The beveled cuts at the hinge point is a fine observation. It further weakens the leather, but would be necessary for such a thick piece to function.

[Mac]

If you've saved the article in pdf, you can go to edit and take a snapshot, then save as a jpg or bmp.

Oh these computers! I went to "edit" and clicked on "snapshot". It said that the image had been saved, but I have no clue where it might have been saved to.

Perhaps my wife can find it for me when she gets home....

Mac

[Mac]

I am working on a little test piece right now, and the exacto knife is doing a pretty good job. I imagine that if I did this all the time I could make the cuts look OK.

The cuts at the hinge points make a big difference in how the thing bends. I'll post a pic or two when it's dry.

Mac

[Ernst]

Looking at my hand when grasping a tool, it's clear the proximal inter-phalangeal joint requires a greater bend than the distal-phalangeal joint. I think it's why the figure 2 finger doesn't have a full knuckle cut toward the distal tip, but only a single semi-circle.

[Mac]

This is true. It is for this reason that the distal joint of historical gauntlets sometimes does not have a separate knuckle plate. As a rule of thumb, I always figure that the proximal joint must be allowed 90 degrees while the distal joint only needs about 45.

If each semicircular cut is worth about 45 degrees, the arrangement on the second finger in the paper works out about right.

Mac