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Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:34 am
by Mac
Does anyone have any links to pics of how people carried their keys? I am primarily interested in the turn of the 14/15th Centuries, but any image from before the 17th C would be useful.
Thanks,
Mac
Edit Here is a link to what images I have already.
https://picasaweb.google.com/1074249789 ... directlink
I hope to add images to this album as I can.
Mac
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:24 am
by Ernst
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:25 am
by CTrumbore
In a couple of Durer illustrations (which are late 15th) you can clearly see keys hanging along side of a pouch. I don't recall seeing how they are attached..whether it's to the top of the pouch, or on the belt NEXT to the pouch however.
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:31 am
by CTrumbore
Gal in the middle.. keys on a ring. (Durer, the visitation)
http://www.wikiart.org/en/albrecht-dure ... ngs-201295
and here (the presentation of CHrist in the temple)
http://www.wikiart.org/en/albrecht-dure ... emple-1505
here (Christ taking leave of his mother) it looks like they are actually ON the purse string
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_tak ... %BCrer.jpg
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:58 am
by Ernst
You could always chain them to your guard dog/dragon.
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:06 am
by CTrumbore
Also by Durer, look up "peasant couple dancing", "melancholia 1" and "madonna by the wall".
That's all I saw with a quick flip through the two Durer books I happen to have out right now.
Hope that helps!
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:50 pm
by Mac
Thank you, CT! I will look through my Dürer books this evening.
Mac
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:52 pm
by Mac
Here is a link to what images I have already.
https://picasaweb.google.com/1074249789 ... directlink
I hope to add images to this album as I can.
Mac
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:56 pm
by Mac
Do you suppose that those rivet onto a belt? ... or what?
Mac
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:57 pm
by CTrumbore
Mac wrote:Thank you, CT! I will look through my Dürer books this evening.
Mac
In "the complete engravings, etchings, and drypoints" it's pgs 159, 165, and 167,
in "the complete woodcuts" it's plates 178, 182, 186, and 190.
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:44 pm
by Ernst
Mac wrote:
Do you suppose that those rivet onto a belt? ... or what?
Mac
Purely speculation on my part:
The "common" type with three holes on top and four on bottom have remnants of chain on both sides in various samples. I think the recessed collar beneath the three hole side might be good for a thong or tie.
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:06 pm
by CTrumbore
Are you sure the 5th one is a key holder, and not a purse frame?
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:25 pm
by Mac
CT,
If it were a purse frame, there would be no need for the the loop to be attached with a threaded fastener.
It's described as a key ring by the Met.; but frankly, the object is
so cute and
so unusual that I am a bit suspicious of it.
Mac
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:27 pm
by CTrumbore
Good point..
Could be worse.. could be "Mother/Fertility idol".
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:50 pm
by Mac
Here are two more items I added to the album today.
This one is said to be 16th C., from Loch Leven. The bail screws on like the one we were discussing earlier. It has a hook in back to attach it to a belt. I believe the other one has this as well.
This purportedly 16th C chain has a toggle at the end. Two other items in the album have toggles as well. It's tempting to think we have a pattern going here, but it's a very small sample size.
Mac
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:30 pm
by Karen Larsdatter
- Hand-off of the keys to the city to the victors of the siege, Renaut de Montauban (BNF Arsenal 5072, fol. 277v), c. 1462-1470
- The Legend of Saint Géry, c. 1470
- The citizens of Rouen give the keys to Charles VII, Vigiles de Charles VII (BNF Fr. 5054, fol. 183r), 1484
- Loyalty, Le Secret des Secrets (BNF NAF 18145,. fol. 94r), 1490?
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:15 pm
by Mac
Thank you, Karen!
The keys-on-a-stick reminds me of gas station rest rooms. I hope the conquering King finds the facilities clean, or that fellow in the shirt is in trouble.
The round ring is a timeless idea, but it's not at all clear how the ends of the ring treated to keep the keys from falling off. The "split ring" is the obvious answer, but I have no idea how far back they might go.
This all gives me an idea..... I checked the Manuscript miniatures site, and did a search for pics tagged with "key".
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?tags=%22key%22
This was the best of them. It looks like each key has its own cord or chain and they are all attached to a metallic thingy. I would not be surprised if that aforesaid thingy had a belt hook....
I will do a more thorough search for surrender scenes tomorrow.
Mac
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:22 pm
by Mac
I see you found another key-stick while I was typing! This one's a bit fancier.
Mac
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:47 am
by Mac
I found a few more surrender scenes, and have included some of them in the album.
https://picasaweb.google.com/1074249789 ... directlink
The key sticks are interesting, but I suspect that they are more about keeping track of important keys than methods of carying keys. The analogy of the gas station rest room key is not without merit.
Mac
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:50 am
by Thomas Powers
Wasn't the Key Flail banned from SCA combat back in AS8?
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:32 am
by Ckanite
Thomas Powers wrote:Wasn't the Key Flail banned from SCA combat back in AS8?
You beat me to the key flail.... Would make a good weapon... though it was probably should you wouldn't loose the damn thing for the umpteenth time...Again...
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:30 pm
by Karen Larsdatter
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:08 am
by chef de chambre
One will note that the surrender scenes generally depict the keys to the gates or gatehouses, and towers of a town, not a domestic household arrangement. The 'key sticks' are likely a temporary gathering of such keys.
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 11:57 am
by Ernst
The chatelaines somewhat remind me of the modern key wallet.
Even today, different people prefer to keep their keys in a pocket, a bag, on a ring with a fob, clipped to the belt, suspended on a chain, worn around the neck, kept in a lockbox, attached to a stick, left in the lock, etc., etc...
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:19 pm
by Mac
Thank you, Karen!
The ring here appears to be some stiffish material. It does not hang like ribbon or cord.
Likewise, here the chain seems to terminate in a (metallic?) ring.
....and this ring look metallic as well.
We can't tell much about when this object is from, but it clearly addresses the question of how the joint of a pre-industrial keyring might be made.
Mac
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:36 pm
by Galleron
Mac, I beg you to record the sources and date if known, before you forget.
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:22 pm
by Mac
Yes, I suppose I should. I was going to say that it was too late already, but I suppose I can re-find them with a Google image search.
Is there a limit to how long a JPG's name can be?... or am I missing the boat, and there is some other convenient way to record that information?
Mac
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:31 pm
by Mac
OK. Someone please help me here.
How do get something from a folder on my desktop (or my Picasa album) into a Google image search?
Mac
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:43 pm
by Karen Larsdatter
Heh -- this is why I make linkspages. I HAVE A SEARCHABLE BRAIN ON THE INTERNET AND ANYONE CAN GO FOR A LOOKY-LOO.
Sure makes it easier to remember which thing a thing is. (You want me to turn this key-holding stuff into a linkspage?)
You can still use Google Image Search. Go to
http://images.google.com and click on the camera icon in the search box. Click on the Upload button, and then click on the Browse button.
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:18 pm
by Mac
Karen,
If you want to turn my album into the start of one of your link pages I would be more than delighted!
Thank you for the tip about the browse button in the image search. I would never have figured it out.
Mac
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:50 pm
by Karen Larsdatter
Sure thing!
Should have it online by Tuesday, I think.
You know, if you right-click on an image (like an unattributed image on an webpage or on Facebook, or whatever) and get the URL for that image, you can use that first tab and Paste Image URL to search for it. It's not always reliable, but on subsequent search result pages, you can add more keywords to the search window and it'll help narrow down the results.
(It'll sometimes confuse really similar images, too; when I was working on adding relevant portraits to
http://larsdatter.com/pins.htm it had a hard time telling between two van der Weyden portraits --
http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/paint ... -of-a-lady and
http://www.nga.gov/content/ngaweb/Colle ... ge.51.html I think.)
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:34 pm
by Karen Larsdatter
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:12 am
by Karen Larsdatter
And another preview of the researchy rabbit-holes I've been falling down lately -- some extant keys with extant rings!
MoL A2862
Met 1975.436.5 a-c
Linkspage is coming together; I've found pretty much everything on
Mac's album except for the pages that were scanned in from books (but I'm pretty sure I know which books they were scanned from --
The Medieval Household and
Material Culture in London in an Age of Transition, right?) and the two 14th century city surrender images (which I think are at the BNF?). And am finding more stuff, too.
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 12:00 pm
by Ernst
Mac,
When I save miniatures to submit to Galfrid, I save the images as jpgs and copy the link in the comments for the image for future documentation.
Re: Medieval key rings/chains ?
Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:02 pm
by Mac
Karen Larsdatter wrote:And another preview of the researchy rabbit-holes I've been falling down lately -- some extant keys with extant rings!
MoL A2862
Met 1975.436.5 a-c
Splendid! The ring on that first one reminds me of things I have seen described as buckles. I wonder what's up with that.
Yes, that's correct. Also, Hooked-Clasps and Eyes by B. Read
http://www.amazon.com/Hooked-Clasps-Eye ... dfasteners
Karen Larsdatter wrote:and the two 14th century city surrender images (which I think are at the BNF?). And am finding more stuff, too.
I found those on Galfrid's Manuscript Miniature site.
Mac
