PDH thesis armour production (photo download links added)

[Tom B.]

Matthias Goll's PHD thesis is available for download.
Iron Documents. Interdisciplinary studies on the technology of late medieval european plate armour production between 1350 and 1500

http://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/voll ... ver/17203/

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Thanks for sharing, Tom! I look forward to reading through this.

[Harry Marinakis]

Thank you

[Jason Grimes]

Ok, this is insane, it's going to take me months to work through all of this. On almost every file I open, my jaw drops. Kastenbrust gauntlets that I didn't know existed. A bifurcated early German gauntlet with mail fingers and thumb, complete with lining!!

I'm still working my way through his paper as well. His new typing system is difficult but I understand why he did it, like Oakeshott's Typology for swords. I can see already that this will be a fun ride.

[Tom B.]

The way he handled all of the photos and videos does make it a bit awkward as well.
I don't know of a better way to do it but it does make it tough to just breeze through.
At over 3 Gig I understand that he couldn't just embed the photos into the text.
Also this way he did not have to compromise and only put in one or two photos of each object.

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Hmm...possibly as a web page, with a scrollable horizontal ribbon gallery for each series of photos. The sheer volume makes for an interesting problem. Perhaps an interactive, digital book?

[Tom B.]

This is by far the single most comprehensive listing / catalog of armour I have ever seen.

There are over 5000 PDF sub-documents containing photos some with 20 photos of an object.
Hundreds of spread sheets contain weights, plate thicknesses, etc.
Hundreds of PDF sub documents containing period illustrations.
Hundreds of drawings showing cross sections of various armour parts (rivets, flutes, plate joints, etc.)

And they are all cross linked together.

[Steve S.]

Can't wait to download it!

Steve

[Ernst]

Although the download is lengthy, it pales in comparison to the time needed to review this. Unfortunately for my interests, "ring-armour" is not the focus of this survey. I'm sure this work will generate lots of posts and data for months and years to come.

[Tom B.]

I meant to mention the lack of mail.

Although the download is lengthy, it pales in comparison to the time needed to review this. Unfortunately for my interests, "ring-armour" is not the focus of this survey. I'm sure this work will generate lots of posts and data for months and years to come.

[Mac]

Dr Goll's thesis is required reading for anyone interested in plate armor.

Words fail me when I try to characterize the importance of the images he has included.

Mac

[Tom B.]

Dr Goll's thesis is required reading for anyone interested in plate armor.

Words fail me when I try to characterize the importance of the images he has included.

Mac

I hope you don't mind me quoting you on this.
I am doing my part to spread the word.

[Signo]

Those are some of the most valuable 3Gbs ever downloaded.

[wcallen]

Here is an odd question. I haven't looked at many pictures because my system set up and his organization don't get along very well. Assuming I had (and I have already seen an image of something I had never seen before, so it is worthwhile).... I also haven't read the whole thing yet, I was just skipping through. Most of what I saw was characterizing items and elements of construction. The ones I saw were describing things I am used to thinking about, just without the typology.

Mac,

Is it really required "reading" in your opinion, or is it a "required resource for the pictures and reference information associated with each picture"?

I have many books that are "must own" - I have many fewer that are actually "required reading."

Wade

[Mac]

Wade,

I have not gotten through it all yet. It does not work well on my computer either, and I spend a lot of time clicking on the "allow" button in the box that opens every time I want to look at a reference.

So far, though, if I had to rate it....

---Required reading--- 6 out of 10 (That's still required)
---Required viewing of the images ----12 out of 10 ( It's right off the scale. There's nothing else that compares)

The images in this document are sort of like the ones in the back of Edge and Paddock..... times 100.

They comprise nothing less than an education in European plate armor.

It makes half of my 28 shelf-feet of armor books look like a waste of money.

This document is a game changer.... a field leveler.

I wish I'd had a thing like this 30 years ago.

Mac

[Keegan Ingrassia]

I keep forgetting to download this at home...far too big for my tablet. I'm extremely excited to start studying this. I'm also surprised that this isn't being discussed over at myarmoury.com.

[Steve S.]

I'm also surprised that this isn't being discussed over at myarmoury.com.

They're posers.

Steve

[Ernst]

More arms-centric than armor-centric. Unfortunately the posting at Arms & Armour Forum got little notice.

[Tom B.]

Come on folks only 68 download of this document.
Don't the rest of you have 30 minutes and 3.1 Gig of space for the download.

[Jason Grimes]

Tom - I actually downloaded it twice. Once at work and once at home.

I did have some questions for those here that have used Oakeshott's Typology for swords. How well does the system work? In his thesis Dr. Gholl states that he has been able to determine trends through his typology. I just wonder if you would be able to get much out of a typology unless it's really fine-grained?

[wcallen]

I only downloaded it once. I carry the system between home and work.

I have never been all that into typologies. Esp. for swords. A "type" that runs for 200 years doesn't help me date something very closely.

And I tend to just describe things instead of trying to pick a term that most people don't understand. That is what the auction houses do, and what was done for the catalogue for the Fitzwilliam collection. "inward turned roped roll" works well enough.

Wade

[Jason Grimes]

Thanks Wade,

I'm trying to decide if I really want to learn the typology or just go ahead and put the whole thing in a database. I feel that typologies like this would be much more useful in a database.

[Steve S.]

Man, it's hard to just "browse". Need to find a way to convert and publish all the PDF files to a web page.

I've found a tool that converts them to flash.

Steve

[Ernst]

Hyperlinks to a web page would be nice.

[Dan Howard]

I've grabbed the file but haven't taken a look yet. I'm looking forward to it.

[Sean M]

And I tend to just describe things instead of trying to pick a term that most people don't understand. That is what the auction houses do, and what was done for the catalogue for the Fitzwilliam collection. "inward turned roped roll" works well enough.

Wade

Descriptions have a few problems. If they are detailed enough to be unambiguous they take a lot of space and concentration, and then its hard to quickly compare things in multiple sources in multiple languages. If they are not, then you really have to know armour and the specific author in question to decide what they are "getting at," and even then there may be confusions. Goll spends a few pages going over problems like "Venetian salet" and "barbuta" which are often used as termini technici but not always with the same meaning. I have trouble understanding some of Blair's poetic shorthand, and I think that anyone who was not a native speaker or was new to armour would have even more trouble. Goll is explicit that he is working in a multi-lingual context, not just English or German.

I think that part of the idea is that its much quicker to write or search for “type-X” than “inward-turned rope roll with wire core” (and all the possible paraphrases and French, German, and Italian equivalents) and harder to make a typo. I will let the armourers like you and Mac decide whether Goll's typology is useful.

[Sean M]

More arms-centric than armor-centric. Unfortunately the posting at Arms & Armour Forum got little notice.

Well, Goll spent years writing this, and it will take weeks of hard work to absorb. Not many have the time and inclination, but those who do will be rewarded. With Thom Richardson's thesis, Goll's thesis, and the other one on tool marks whose author escapes my memory, it is a good time for Anglophones to be studying armour.

[Ernst]

Sean,
That would be the thesis by Nickolas Dupras.
http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/4376/

[wcallen]

And I tend to just describe things instead of trying to pick a term that most people don't understand. That is what the auction houses do, and what was done for the catalogue for the Fitzwilliam collection. "inward turned roped roll" works well enough.

Wade

Descriptions have a few problems. If they are detailed enough to be unambiguous they take a lot of space and concentration, and then its hard to quickly compare things in multiple sources in multiple languages. If they are not, then you really have to know armour and the specific author in question to decide what they are "getting at," and even then there may be confusions. Goll spends a few pages going over problems like "Venetian salet" and "barbuta" which are often used as termini technici but not always with the same meaning. I have trouble understanding some of Blair's poetic shorthand, and I think that anyone who was not a native speaker or was new to armour would have even more trouble. Goll is explicit that he is working in a multi-lingual context, not just English or German.

I think that part of the idea is that its much quicker to write or search for “type-X” than “inward-turned rope roll with wire core” (and all the possible paraphrases and French, German, and Italian equivalents) and harder to make a typo. I will let the armourers like you and Mac decide whether Goll's typology is useful.

We will see. It will take time.

I expect that if everyone memorizes the typology, it would make comparing items at a very gross level easier. But I do not expect auction houses to use it (they are selling to normal people who won't care about typologies), museum guide books will avoid it (their intended audience won't know it), and all semi-popular-directed book to avoid it (again, they want to sell to normal people). We may end up with a small sub-culture actually using it. Maybe. Such a thing would take off a lot better if one or more museums were to assign typology tags to their pieces as they publish. Their there would be a reason to start using it. I don't know that a museum is creating a new inventory at the right time to try.

Now.. if Mattias had chosen to name his files using the typology, we would have to learn it to find the pictures we want. But he just used sequential numbers. At least the way things are working on my computer, that makes browsing really, really REALLY slow.

Wade

[Tom B.]

If you look at the table subfolder (sorry I am on my phone and can't give specifics)
There is a spread sheet that has the items arranged by typology.
With links to the PDF's with the pics.
The deeper I dig the more cross linking and referencing I see.

[RevBigEars]

The bucket video... that was cool!

[Tom B.]

The bucket video... that was cool!

That was the most complete of all of the water powered hammer bucket videos I have seen.
It starts with preping the blanks starting from cut squares.
It includes making the cassettes of seven blanks with a wrapped over outer layer.
Shaping on the big hammer along with several tool changes.
Overview of water power system and other tools in the shop (i like the shear).
All of the way to opening and seperating the completed stack.

[Chris Gilman]

Any tips in dealing with this file? If I click on a photo link in the text, my computer asks permission to open the file, if I click "allow", it asks me again in a different style of window if I will "allow", once clicked, it launches my web browser to my home page, then nothing....
Very annoying..

[Mac]

Chris,

Tom B. talked me through it, but I'm such a Luddite I can't really remember what we did. .....something about "extracting"(?) the file from the download and putting it in a folder where the computer could find it. It's all magic, and you have to know the spells.

Tom,

Can you remember the gist of the thing?

Mac

[Jason Grimes]

Not Tom, but I'm thinking he said that you need to unzip the file. That extracts the files from the .zip file and should make the directories and place the files in them, just like how they were first placed in the zip file. There are a ton of utilities to do this. I'm not sure what most people like to use in Windows, and as I'm a Linux user, I just use the archive manager.