Article on THE BRIGANDINE FROM THE POLISH ARMY MUSEUM

[Tom B.]

Here is a link to a PDF of
THE BRIGANDINE FROM THE POLISH ARMY MUSEUM IN WARSAW – SOME THOUGHTS ABOUT ITS PROVENANCE AND CHRONOLOGY

[leekellerking]

Which means that brigandines are definitely period for me!

[Mac]

Tanks for linking to that article, Tom!

Those two armors are very strongly related, but I am not convinced that they are as early as the author hopes. I will compose my thoughts and write more in the morning.

Mac

[Tom B.]

I have always thought the one with the mail was much later than the museum info card claimed.
My opinion was based on plate size, shape, and rivet pattern.
I don't think I had seen it photographed as thoroughly as this before.
The mail always seemed odd to me and suspicious.

[RandallMoffett]

With the one having a large solid backplate would be a neat early date for these armours but as it is likely singular from what I am seeing in art makes me wonder a bit. Neat article though. Some more thinking to do for sure before I make my late 14th harness.

RPM

[Mac]

Here is a sketch I made this morning of the Warsaw corrizina/brigandine. The proportions are carefully taken from the relevant views, and the figure is one I have been using for some time and is reasonably typical.



The most striking thing is the unarmored section of the skirt. I have no explanation for it.

Glinianowicz says that the opening in the lower center of the skirt is to facilitate walking and riding, but we can deny that interpretation on two counts. The first is that the opening is clearly damage, rather than an intentional feature. It occurs only on the (wearer's) left. The fact that the center seam is still intact demonstrates this clearly. The second is that the anomalous unarmored place with which is is associated the opening too high on the body for it to have anything to do with the free movement of the legs.

This all gets weirder in light of the Milan armor, where the central opening in the skirts clearly is intentional. I hope to get a chance to sketch that armor to the same scale later today.

Mac

[Mac]

I took a different approach to the Milan armor, and moved the waist down to a comfortable "blue jean" level on the pelvis.



This puts the slit in the skirt much lower, but it is still higher than I expected. I tried drawing the waist even lower to get a more reasonable "tasset like" effect for the sides of the skirt, but it ended up looking too too tall and thin.

With this armor, it's clear that the waistline dips significantly in the middle. It makes me think of the last third of the 15th C.

I may redraw the Warsaw armor with the lower waist and see how it compares. These armors are so similar that it's reasonable to believe they should fit similarly.

Mac

[Tom B.]

Here is a 16th century brigandine, with the cut out in the front, for comparison.
This is the one found at Schloss Tirol in 1999.

[Mac]

This has got me thinking about our expectations in brigandines. At first blush, one expects them to have the same basic shape as a contemporary plate cuirasse, but perhaps that is not so.

I wonder if the thing we need here is a bunch of pics of guys in brigandines from different time periods.

Mac

[Tom B.]

I wonder if the thing we need here is a bunch of pics of guys in brigandines from different time periods.

I have been doing a bit of that this morning.
Unfortunately I don't know when I would have a chance to scan images in.

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Just spitballing here, but could the cutout serve as a way to display and comfortably wear an exaggerated codpiece?

[Mac]

Here's a detail from Carpaccio's St Ursula paintings. We have a good comparison between plate cuirasses and and a brigandine. It looks to me like the plate cuirasses have their waists up above the pelvis, while the brigandine's waist is at least three fingers lower. It makes sense that we can allow the waist to be that low on a brigandine because it can collapse a bit to when the wearer bends to the side.



That old dude looks pretty jolly, but I don't think I'd mess with him. He'd been a soldier for forty five years by then, so I imagine he was tougher than he looked.

Mac

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Madrid(Calvert):

[Mac]

This is definitely a "blue jeans" waist on this fellows brigandine.



Mac

[Mac]

A Google image search for "brigandine" yields the good, the bad, and the ugly. Here is a good one https://www.pinterest.com/nicharrison39/brigandine/ This guy has pinned a number of extant birgandines and fragments thereof. It's worth a look.

Mac

[Mac]

Here's a nice pic of the Milan brigandine.



Mac

[Mac]

Something of similar proportions. I don't know where this one is. I was reluctant to to the the page that posted it.....



Mac

[Tom B.]

Here are some links from your "Any Extant Examples of Mail Like This" thread.

Here is a link to a high resolution image of Nuno Goncalves' St. Vincent Panels

Panels #4 & #5

[Mac]

I redrew the Warsaw armor, but this time I presumed that the waist was at the "blue jean" belt line, and that the whole thing was a bit bigger. The result makes better ergonomic sense.

Note; that all areas shaded in zig zag are my reconstructions of presumably lost fabric. I did not reconstruct any of the lost plates in this sketch.




Mac

[Mac]

By contrast, a late 14thC corazinna/brigandine like the ones in Alticheiro's frescos might look more like the sketch on the left.



Mac

[RandallMoffett]

An interesting thought Mac. Most of the brigs I have seen that are original 15th seemed to have a very similar shape to other torso defenses of the period in proportion, though I only got to see a few in person inside and outside. It was interesting to see the really long torso defenses of the later 15th and especially as the 16th century went on in this respect as the brigs, cuirasses and jack of plates often have very long stomach look to them.

I'll have to look through my photo files at brigs.

RPM

[Tom B.]

Something of similar proportions. I don't know where this one is. I was reluctant to to the the page that posted it.....



Mac

I think it is in Leeds, it is on a manikin to the left of the brigandine opened up displaying the plates. Is this the same one?

[Mac]

Yes. I pretty sure it's the same one. It's been restrapped since the B/W photo.

Mac

[Tom B.]

Here is another Memling painting:

Full sized image of St Ursula

[Mac]

Memling! Oh Memling! Jewel of the Norther Renaissance. What joy thine art is to behold!

This is the sort of picture you can jump into and swim around in. Look at the reflections in the archer's backplate and cullet. The distortion from the curvature is nearly perfect.

I can't make up my mind if I think the brigandine's waist is lower then plate armor's. I'm pretty sure that plate armor's waists are above the pelvis, though. The guy in the middle seems to obey the rule of thumb for armors with horizontal waists. That is; the distance from top of the sternum to the waist is equal to the distance from the waist to the PCP (that's the Package-Covering-Point) In this case, he has a high neckline on his breastplate, so we start about two fingers down from there. That same distance takes us from the waist to the bottom of his DPU (you all know this abrev. already... right?)

We can also see that both of the fellows who have their backs to us have their mail neck defenses fastened with two buckles.

So much to see. It's a shame about St Ursula and her freinds, though.

Mac

[Vermillion]

Great thread guys !

[Tom B.]

There also are the 100's if not thousands of brigandines in the Pastran Tapestries.
I have posted lost of images of these the last couple of years.

AA Search on "Pastrana" posted by Tom B.

Here is a link to a Google+ album where I have post most of the images I have used in those posts.

[chef de chambre]

Style and construction, size of plates and nail pattern indicate a date closer to 1500 than 1400. The earliest I'd date it is about 1480. There is a very stubborn and strong opinion to date these far earlier than is likely. The late 14th century fresco's posted show the same general idea, but the plates are much larger when to carefully consider the scale of the plates underlying the nail pattern.

The general rule of thumb is the smaller the plates are in the pattern with a European example, the later it is. Prior to the last quarter of the 15th century, the plates of the peplum are fairly large lames, contrasted with an example from, say 1500-1520.

[Signo]

Mac, maybe brigandines need to conform more with a bodyshape, and thus have a lower waistline because their flexibility could harm the wearer if his torso is squeezed in it and receive a strong blow. Solid plates can do a better job at dissipating energy, and at the same time can hold a body shape far better than canvas.

[Mac]

I feel as though I need to completely reexamine my understanding of waistlines.

Mac

[Konstantin the Red]

. . . distance from top of the sternum to the waist is equal to the distance from the waist to the PCP (that's the Package-Covering-Point) In this case, he has a high neckline on his breastplate, so we start about two fingers down from there. That same distance takes us from the waist to the bottom of his DPU (you all know this abrev. already... right?)

Right -- for years, yet. Searchbuttoning DPU also brings up an alternative term or two from back then. Simply none of which are Mee dee ae eival... though well received at the time. So... not only well known, but has aliases:

Konstantin,

Nad tasset!?! Hmm.... I wonder if I should start calling them that instead of DPUs.

Mac

[worldantiques]

[Kristoffer]

Whats up with those scale like plates? They are on the inside and not visible, why bother filing them to such a shape?

[Mac]

Lots of later brigandines have plates like that. I think they are scalloped for no other reason than to look nice. They are typically found in the centers of the breast and back and up around the necks; like the one that Eric posted.

I imagine the work goes pretty quickly. Most of the material would come out with two chisel cuts. When you had a pile of those, you would take them to the vise and give each notch a couple of licks with a file. Over the whole brigandine, it probably only adds a couple of hours.

Mac

[Ernst]

Sometimes you see them around the arms as well. Looks to have a pronounced belly. Peascod?