The Armour Archive

Hello all

Question on 14th Century greaves and cuisses. Was it the norm at this time to have a pin from the front of the greave through a slot on the cuisse to help unify the parts, or were "floating greaves," worn separately, more common? Any insights as to the benefits of each? I'm having a problem with the greaves riding the tops of my feet. The greaves I'm wearing right now don't have the best possible fit, too loose in the calf (they don't ride over the calf muscle but are more open there), so I'm wondering of a better fitting greave would have them sitting where they need to be (with room for sabatons also), or if the pins would help (plus a better fitting greave). Suggestions welcome

What part of the 14th century? First quarter? Last? That will help inform the answer as to using a pin through the demi-greave.

As to the greave fit, it absolutely needs to fit snugly over the top of your calf. There are a few threads on the subject, but the basic premise is the top portion, up to the widest part of your calf, is well-fitted to support the greaves and keep it in place. Below that, it gradually starts to pull away from the leg, then once at the narrowest part of the ankle begins its transition to fit the foot and it's necessary range of motion.

Depending on how bad the fit is you might be able to add some foam to the top above the calf bulge to help with the fit.
A few pictures may help to get better advice.

Keegan, I'm looking for final quarter of the 14th Century, around 1375. Your description is what I've always expected of how a greave should fit, but attaining it has been elusive. I'd like to get it right for once on my next set

Tom, foam won't be an option within the scope of my application (I've considered it before). The pin through the demi-greave is what I'm hoping will make them salvageable until they can be replaced and held for loaner gear, but I just want to satisfy myself as to whether the pin would be period appropriate or not.

Thanks!

Towards the turn of the century, you're in luck! It started to be used, though instead of front and center, it's off to the outside face, about 45 degrees from the center line. Post pin in the greaves, round hole in the demi-greave, and the standard strap going around the back. And the metal strap loop on the back of the greaves.

Eric Slyter wrote: ... foam won't be an option within the scope of my application (I've considered it before).

Eric,

If you are eschewing modern materials, you could pad them up with fabric and some stuffing. Even if you pin them to your demigreaves, it would be better if they supported their own weight.

Mac

Keegan Ingrassia wrote:Towards the turn of the century, you're in luck! It started to be used, though instead of front and center, it's off to the outside face, about 45 degrees from the center line. Post pin in the greaves, round hole in the demi-greave, and the standard strap going around the back. And the metal strap loop on the back of the greaves.

Keegan,

Could you point me to you references?
At least get me started on where to look.

Thanks,

Tom B. wrote:

Keegan Ingrassia wrote:Towards the turn of the century, you're in luck! It started to be used, though instead of front and center, it's off to the outside face, about 45 degrees from the center line. Post pin in the greaves, round hole in the demi-greave, and the standard strap going around the back. And the metal strap loop on the back of the greaves.

Keegan,

Could you point me to you references?
At least get me started on where to look.

Thanks,

Hey Tom,

The legs at Chartres are provided with a hole in that location. Further, that is where they appear on English effigies from around the turn of the 15th C and later.

Apologies for not linking directly. Currently on a tablet, which makes this sort of work...inelegant.

Keegan Ingrassia wrote:

Tom B. wrote:

Keegan Ingrassia wrote:Towards the turn of the century, you're in luck! It started to be used, though instead of front and center, it's off to the outside face, about 45 degrees from the center line. Post pin in the greaves, round hole in the demi-greave, and the standard strap going around the back. And the metal strap loop on the back of the greaves.

Keegan,

Could you point me to you references?
At least get me started on where to look.

Thanks,

Hey Tom,

The legs at Chartres are provided with a hole in that location. Further, that is where they appear on English effigies from around the turn of the 15th C and later.

Apologies for not linking directly. Currently on a tablet, which makes this sort of work...inelegant.

Thanks

Chartres leg showing the matching holes presumed to be for the pin

Eric Slyter wrote:Hello all

Question on 14th Century greaves and cuisses. Was it the norm at this time to have a pin from the front of the greave through a slot on the cuisse to help unify the parts, or were "floating greaves," worn separately, more common? Any insights as to the benefits of each? I'm having a problem with the greaves riding the tops of my feet. The greaves I'm wearing right now don't have the best possible fit, too loose in the calf (they don't ride over the calf muscle but are more open there), so I'm wondering of a better fitting greave would have them sitting where they need to be (with room for sabatons also), or if the pins would help (plus a better fitting greave). Suggestions welcome

Much better (as Mac said) to have the greave support its own weight. You really shouldn't be trying to hang the greave from the cuisse, the other way around works better (supporting the cuisse a little from the bottom).

I built myself a pair of fitted schynbalds (just front greaves). They still support themselves from the calf using a strap where the top of the back greave would have been. I can do pretty much anything I want in them and they don't ride on the feet. I even forgot to secure the bottom strap once and it still sat in the right place. Mine were definitely floating. They were used with a cheap/fake/SCA leg harness that used a floating cop and a plastic cuiisse simulating the gamboised cuisse and cop idea.

If the greave really fits badly enough that some padding won't help, there was a theorized strap that went internal to the upper greave posted on one of the earlier threads about greaves. No way to know that it is even possibly something that they did, but it could be a way to salvage otherwise ill-fitted greaves.

Wade

wcallen wrote: If the greave really fits badly enough that some padding won't help, there was a theorized strap that went internal to the upper greave posted on one of the earlier threads about greaves. No way to know that it is even possibly something that they did, but it could be a way to salvage otherwise ill-fitted greaves.

Wade

here is the thread Wade is talking about.
Here is Signo's sketch from that thread.

Great, thanks for the leads, guys At this point, I just want to make these greaves liveable until replacements can be obtained, so I feel that there's no harm in trying the pin option. If it doesn't improve the situation, I take the pin out, and I'm no worse off.

I might look into padding them with period materials where they need to fit better. Any evidence in period for that? I just like to know whether I'm fudging something or not.

Thanks!

I seem to be in the minority here. I hang my greaves by the post and back staple from the poleyn. It helps to have the cuisses hang from a doublet that sort of works right.

James probably your greaves are not some 1.5mm thick like some ugly stuff that is around, if their weight is decent, I've already seen people hang them like you do.

James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:I seem to be in the minority here. I hang my greaves by the post and back staple from the poleyn. It helps to have the cuisses hang from a doublet that sort of works right.

I don't know this for sure, but I expect yours fit well enough that you are supporting at least some of the weight on the calf and not doing what may SCA legs do - just drag at the hips until you complain.

You can also get a little bit of help from the back of the knee strap on the cop, and then helping hanging the greave from there.

Of course it also helps if things are a reasonable thickness, so the weight is reasonable. With standard SCA style cuisses and SCA sig on your ankle knees, you would be pretty much out of luck. James wouldn't have built stuff like that.

Wade

I wear my cuisses with a pourpoint, and barely notice them. My cuisses are 18 gauge stainless, the cops 16 gauge stainless, and the cased stainless greaves in the 18 gauge range.