European riveted mail types and timeline.

[worldantiques]

I want to add some information that has been overlooked by most people when it comes to formulating a timeline of European riveted mail and how many types of European riveted mail there are. At some point in time most European mail transitioned from alternating rows of solid link and round riveted link construction to all wedge riveted construction, solid links were eliminated at some point in time. What is not commonly mentioned is that there is evidence of a transition period, inbetween the change from alternating solid link and round riveted link mail and all wedge riveted mail with no solid links there is a third type of European mail which was constructed with alternating solid links and wedge riveted links.

It never made sense to me that European mail makers suddenly all at one, in unison, stopped making alternating solid link and round riveted link mail and started making all wedge riveted mail with no solid links. There had to be a transition period were European mail makers still used alternating rows of solid links but substituted wedge shaped rivets for round rivets. At some point in time the new wedge riveted mail must have been seen as such a better alternative to the old round rivets that they decided that they could completely do away with the solid links and just make their mail with all wedge riveted links.

When I started looking for evidence to back up my belief, the first thing that I found was the famous mail shirt from Sinigaglia. E. Martin Burgess examined and wrote an essay in 1957 on the Sinigaglia shirt in which he described it as being constructed with both solid and riveted links and that the riveted links were wedge riveted, the age of this shirt was said to be the 14th century. http://www.erikds.com/pdf/tmrs_pdf_3.pdf Photographs of the Sinagalia shirt taken at a much later date clearly show that Burguess correctly described the construction. https://www.pinterest.com/pin/7881368074255552/

The next evidence I found was a photograph of some riveted mail horse armor in the Royal Armories dated to the 14th century, the photograph shows the inside links which are alternating solid and wedge riveted. This image of riveted horse mail https://www.pinterest.com/pin/7881368072055680/ originally came from the PHD thesis of Thom Richardson called "The Medieval Inventories of the Tower of London Armories 1320-1410" http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/3919/1/T ... _final.pdf Thom Richardson is currently Deputy Master and Head of Collections at the Royal Armories in Leeds and former Keeper of Armour and Oriental Collections. In his thesis, Thom clearly shows through inventory records that alternatiing solid link and wedge riveted link mail was in use in the 1330s, he therefore puts the date of transition towards all wedge riveted European mail at around 1340 instead of the 1400s as stated by E. Martin Burgess.

A second essay from E. Martin Burgess in 1958 describes what is called the "The Mail Shirt from the Hearst Collection", this is another alternating solid and wedge riveted mail shirt, in this essay Burgess clearly describes the change from alternating solid and round riveted mail, to alternating solid and wedge riveted mail, to all wedge riveted mail with no solid links. Burgess offers an explanation as to why (and when) European mail makers eventually decided that they no longer needed to use solid links. http://www.erikds.com/pdf/tmrs_pdf_13.pdf

Recently another European alternating solid and wedge riveted mail shirt has been discovered, it to would be dated to the 14th century.
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/7881368073395154/

In conclusion there is a significant amount of evidence to show that there were three distinct types of European riveted mail in use, while I have not found a firm starting date for the introduction of wedge riveting it can be assumed to be somewere between the late 1200s and early 1300s. The first phase of European mail was alternating solid link and round riveted mail, somewere around the late 1200s to early 1300s European mail makers started to substitute wedge rivets for round rivets but they still used alternating rows of solid links, somewere around 1340 European mail makers started to leave out the solid links and began to manufacture all wedge riveted mail, eventually the use of solid links in European mail was totally stopped and only all wedge riveted mail was manufactured with a few exceptions. This was not completly universal in Europe as some Eastern European mail was made differently but overall this timeline seems to cover the majority of European riveted mail.

If anyone has a different opinion or additional information I would be glad to hear it.

[Dan Howard]

This makes sense to me. I'm not sure about the dates but have no problem with a transitional period between alternating round-riveted and all wedge-riveted. But how widespread was wedge-riveting? The two main manufacturing centers were in Southern Germany and Northen Italy and the Italian mail seems to have always used round rivets. Wedge riveting seems to be largely limited to German producers.

[Ernst]

I think that all-riveted mail first appears around 1300, as well. The inventory of King Louis X contains several items of "high nailing", the term Richardson (and I) believe refers to all-riveted mail, as well as "half-nailed" mail of demi-riveted construction. At least one "high nailed" item is noted as being from Chambly, while none of the Lombard mail is so classified.
http://ducange.enc.sorbonne.fr/ARMATURA3

Item uns pans et uns bras de roondes mailles de haute cloüeure.
Item uns pans et uns bras d'acier plus fors de mailles rondes de haute cloüeure.
Item uns pans et un bras d'acier, et le camail de mesme.
Item 3. coleretes Pizaines de jazeran d'acier.
Item une barbiere de haute cloüeure de chambli.
Item un jazeran d'acier.
Item un haubergon d'acier à manicles.
Item une couverture de jazeran de fer.
Item une couverture de mailles rondes demy cloées.
Item une testiere de haute cloüeure de maille ronde.
Item un haubert entier de Lombardie.
Item 2. autres haubergons de Lombardie.
etc.

On the other hand, I have personally been guilty of arguing the reductio ad absurdum that all-riveted mail completely replaces demi-riveted construction in Europe. While that certainly seems to be the trend, it is never absolute. C.S. Smith documents a mail brayette in the Metropolitan museum of art which is of demi-riveted construction, and likely dates to the late-15th or early-16th centuries. It seems unlikely that we can document the brayette's use into a 14th century context, although it's possible the brayette was made up from older pieces of mail. Anyone want to try for a Master's fellowship at the Met?
http://www.erikds.com/pdf/tmrs_pdf_5.pdf

1.Brayette, German, ca. 1525. Riveted
Links of flat wire; solid, half round.
27.183.14

http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the ... arch/34839

Date: 16th century
Culture: German
Medium: Steel
Dimensions: H. folded, 14 3/16 in. (36.0 cm); H. open, 29 1/2 in. (75 cm) W. folded, 21 5/8 in. (55 cm); W. unfolded, 44 1/2 in. (113 cm); Diam. (outside) of upper brayette links, 15/32 in. (12.2 mm); Diam. (inside) of upper brayette links, 5/16 in. (7.9 mm); Diam. (outside) of links of half-riveted section, 13/32 in. (9.7 mm); Diam. (inside) of links of half-riveted section, 1/4 in. (6.4 mm); Diam. (outside) of solid links, 3/8 in. (9.7 mm) Diam. (inside) of solid links, 1/4 in. (6.5 mm); Diam. (outside) of skirt links, 13/32 in. (10.5 mm); 5/16 in. (7.6 mm); Wt. 7 lbs. (3.2 kg).

That makes for a really long transition period, and it seems likely some makers or regions never made the change. The Turks eventually seem to start making all-riveted mail in the 16th century, perhaps from Italian influence, but generally all-riveted construction tends to be a sign of European manufacture.

Unfortunately I don't know of any inventory description to account for the description of the rivets other than "alta" or "haute", so I'm uncertain how to document the origin of wedge-style riveting.

[Ernst]

This makes sense to me. I'm not sure about the dates but have no problem with a transitional period between alternating round-riveted and all wedge-riveted. But how widespread was wedge-riveting? The two main manufacturing centers were in Southern Germany and Northen Italy and the Italian mail seems to have always used round rivets. Wedge riveting seems to be largely limited to German producers.

I'm not certain if this is so. The Lyle bascinet has it's original aventail of north Italian manufacture. Has anyone given it a good look?
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/73 ... 2a54a9.jpg

Wade's M-2 has wedge riveting, and Erik Schmid and I both feel it's of north Italian workmanship. Italian plate harnesses still use mail attached to the demi-greave and as attached sabatons, so that at least gives some opportunity for dating.

Erik has stated several times that he believes the "watershed" around the rivet is a German feature of manufacture. It might even be restricted to Bavaria -- Augsburg-Nuremburg -- though I doubt we can be that restrictive, yet.

[Dan Howard]

I'm not certain if this is so. The Lyle bascinet has it's original aventail of north Italian manufacture. Has anyone given it a good look?
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/73 ... 2a54a9.jpg

Wade's M-2 has wedge riveting, and Erik Schmid and I both feel it's of north Italian workmanship. Italian plate harnesses still use mail attached to the demi-greave and as attached sabatons, so that at least gives some opportunity for dating.

Good to know. It's unlikely that the Italians imported German mail to attach to their plate when there were plenty of local manufactureers.

[worldantiques]

C.S. Smith documents a mail brayette in the Metropolitan museum of art which is of demi-riveted construction, and likely dates to the late-15th or early-16th centuries. It seems unlikely that we can document the brayette's use into a 14th century context, although it's possible the brayette was made up from older pieces of mail.

It seems more unlikely that some European mail maker was still making alternate rows of solid links over a hundred years after almost every other European mail maker stopped using solid links. A lot of the data from older research needs to be relooked at carefully. If something seems unlikely it probably is. Either the dating of the armor item is wrong or as you said the mail is from an earlier period and was reused.

[worldantiques]

The two main manufacturing centers were in Southern Germany and Northen Italy and the Italian mail seems to have always used round rivets. Wedge riveting seems to be largely limited to German producers.

Dan, can you post an image or link to an example of Italian round riveted mail?

[worldantiques]

The Turks eventually seem to start making all-riveted mail in the 16th century,

Can you post an image or link to an image of Ottoman all riveted mail, as far as I know there are a few known "Indo-Persian" all riveted mail examples but not specifically proven to be of Ottoman manufacture despite what some auction house or museum may put on their descriptions.

[Ernst]

The Turks eventually seem to start making all-riveted mail in the 16th century,

Can you post an image or link to an image of Ottoman all riveted mail, as far as I know there are a few known "Indo-Persian" all riveted mail examples but not specifically proven to be of Ottoman manufacture despite what some auction house or museum may put on their descriptions.

http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the ... ?=&imgno=2

[worldantiques]

The Turks eventually seem to start making all-riveted mail in the 16th century,

Can you post an image or link to an image of Ottoman all riveted mail, as far as I know there are a few known "Indo-Persian" all riveted mail examples but not specifically proven to be of Ottoman manufacture despite what some auction house or museum may put on their descriptions.

http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the ... ?=&imgno=2

This example shows absolutely none of the normally seen characterestics of Ottoman mail, do you really trust the Met when it comes to dating and describing rare examples of mail? This mail could easily be called Syrian, Mamluk, Persian etc, I would call it Indo-Persian or Middle Eastern.

[worldantiques]

From Thom Richardson "The Medieval Inventories of the Tower of London Armories 1320-1410", a description of some "good German and Lombard (Italian) mail, no mention of round rivets for Italian mail in this essay that I can recall, I would like to see any evidence that specifically says that Italian mail makers did not use wedge riveting and continued to use round rivets. Thom had access to all of the research we have available to us and probably a lot more that we do not have access to, this is a fairly recent essay and I would trust the information contained in it more than some older research.

The indenture for issues to the fleet in 1337 includes 262 aventails, 257 pisanes, and 157 mail shirts together with other armour. This indenture includes more detail than Fleet’s own account, and explains a poorly understood aspect of mail construction, ‘item 120 aventails of good German and Lombard mail, half-riveted [demi enclous] and fully riveted [tut enclous]. This term, also found in French as de haute clouere, has mystified scholars for over a century. From the details in Fleet’s account and indenture, it is clear that the word haute (or alta) evidently refers to the proportion of riveted links in the garments.

The rivets with which the links are closed are usually wedge-shaped, and fit into wedge-shaped holes punched through the overlapped section of the link from the inside out. The overlapped sections of the links themselves are formed with a swage and hammer with a flat section on the inside of the link and a wave-shaped ‘watershed’ on the outside of the link, so that when the link has been joined to its neighbours and the rivet inserted and hammered closed, with the wide end of the rivet completely flush with the inside of the link, and the pointed end riveted down on the outside, on top of the wave-shaped overlapping section. This in turn means that the mail garment when worn has its smooth side inside, so the rivets do not catch on the padded garments worn underneath. The evidence in the Tower accounts shows that the traditional date of 1400 before which European mail was made of half-riveted, half solid links, needs to be revised to about 1340.

[Ernst]

The Turks eventually seem to start making all-riveted mail in the 16th century,

Can you post an image or link to an image of Ottoman all riveted mail, as far as I know there are a few known "Indo-Persian" all riveted mail examples but not specifically proven to be of Ottoman manufacture despite what some auction house or museum may put on their descriptions.

http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the ... ?=&imgno=2

This example shows absolutely none of the normally seen characterestics of Ottoman mail, do you really trust the Met when it comes to dating and describing rare examples of mail? This mail could easily be called Syrian, Mamluk, Persian etc, I would call it Indo-Persian or Middle Eastern.

I trust they have access to men who are more knowledgeable of the script style stamped into the rings than me, who has none. It's good to question things, but do you have a detailed knowledge of script that would allow you to make a more definitive statement than that given by the Met?

[Ernst]

C.S. Smith documents a mail brayette in the Metropolitan museum of art which is of demi-riveted construction, and likely dates to the late-15th or early-16th centuries. It seems unlikely that we can document the brayette's use into a 14th century context, although it's possible the brayette was made up from older pieces of mail.

It seems more unlikely that some European mail maker was still making alternate rows of solid links over a hundred years after almost every other European mail maker stopped using solid links. A lot of the data from older research needs to be relooked at carefully. If something seems unlikely it probably is. Either the dating of the armor item is wrong or as you said the mail is from an earlier period and was reused.

You have created a false dichotomy by asserting it unlikely. Three equally plausible possibilities exist, if not more.
1. The dating of the armor is wrong. (In which case we should find earlier images and inventories of mail brayettes.)
2. The mail brayette has been pieces together from older mail. (In which case a detailed analysis of the item need to be performed looking at various ring styles in the construction.)
3. Demi riveted construction continued in use in Europe for longer than you are willing to credit it. (In which case we need to find more examples of demi-riveted construction which can reliably be dated to later times.

Peter Mustonen has a mail "tabard" which is demi-riveted, and tailored like a late 16th century peascod doublet, with an expansion for the peascod and severe flare on the short skirt. He's posted images on the My Armoury thread. The style with large, flat, punched rings mixed with round wire, wedge-riveted rings. seems prevalent to the Baltic region.
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/files/aadda_109.jpg

Of course we have no proof of the date for that armor, either, but merely a presumption that armor made in a certain fashion fits into the appropriate time frame when that fashion occurred.

[Sean M]

Garments of half-riveted and riveted or fully riveted mail are all over the Datini archive in the late 14th century, among a dozen or two different types of mail. Again, unless someone is willing to pay me to work on this full-time, wait five or ten years while I organize it and learn how to interpret all the jargon.

Mail was constantly recut, cut down, and extended so dating and placing surviving mail is very hard.

[worldantiques]

You have created a false dichotomy by asserting it unlikely. Three equally plausible possibilities exist, if not more.
1. The dating of the armor is wrong. (In which case we should find earlier images and inventories of mail brayettes.)
2. The mail brayette has been pieces together from older mail. (In which case a detailed analysis of the item need to be performed looking at various ring styles in the construction.)
3. Demi riveted construction continued in use in Europe for longer than you are willing to credit it. (In which case we need to find more examples of demi-riveted construction which can reliably be dated to later times.

Peter Mustonen has a mail "tabard" which is demi-riveted, and tailored like a late 16th century peascod doublet, with an expansion for the peascod and severe flare on the short skirt. He's posted images on the My Armoury thread. The style with large, flat, punched rings mixed with round wire, wedge-riveted rings. seems prevalent to the Baltic region.
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/files/aadda_109.jpg

Of course we have no proof of the date for that armor, either, but merely a presumption that armor made in a certain fashion fits into the appropriate time frame when that fashion occurred.

Have you throughly read what both Bergess and Richardson have written on this subject, that is what I am basing my comments on. As for Peters armor, it is "Eastern European" and as we all know Eastern European mail does not always follow the rules of European mail, its like comparing apples to oranges.

[worldantiques]

The Turks eventually seem to start making all-riveted mail in the 16th century,

Can you post an image or link to an image of Ottoman all riveted mail, as far as I know there are a few known "Indo-Persian" all riveted mail examples but not specifically proven to be of Ottoman manufacture despite what some auction house or museum may put on their descriptions.

http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the ... ?=&imgno=2

This example shows absolutely none of the normally seen characterestics of Ottoman mail, do you really trust the Met when it comes to dating and describing rare examples of mail? This mail could easily be called Syrian, Mamluk, Persian etc, I would call it Indo-Persian or Middle Eastern.

I trust they have access to men who are more knowledgeable of the script style stamped into the rings than me, who has none. It's good to question things, but do you have a detailed knowledge of script that would allow you to make a more definitive statement than that given by the Met?

Unfortunately when it comes to the online image descriptions from the Met they are not always correct. That particular armor was probably photographed a long time ago, there is no further information on why it is assumed to be Ottoman. There is no posted translation as far as I can see if there are any translatable text on the links. This was a gift from Bashford Deans wife in 1949, I would not be surprised if the discription was the one that Dean gave it. Could it be Ottoman, possibly, but it could also be from several nearby cultures, if the museum has some evidence that it is Ottoman they should post it, they do this with other images. The met has another very similar hauberk which is also labeled as being "Turkish", you know the one, it has double rivets, they date it to the 17th century, the one we are discussing is dated to the 16th century, I would also like to know were they get these dates from.

[worldantiques]

The reason I made this post is that when I see what people are writing about when it comes to European mail, either round riveted or wedge riveted mail is mentioned....I can not remember anyone mentioning the third type which is alternating rows of solid links and wedge rivets. It really does not matter what the exact dates are, but the evidence shows that there are three main types of European riveted mail, not two.

For anyone interested in reading about alternating solid and wedge riveted European mail, I have converted the best parts of both essays with useful and interesting information on this subject to text and posted them on Pinterest.

E. Martin Burgess "The Mail Shirt from the Hearst Collection"
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/7881368075529183/

Thom Richardson "The Medieval Inventories of the Tower of London Armories 1320-1410" (click for high resolution image)
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/7881368075531426/

[Ernst]

The problem being that inventories distinguish between round rings and flat, and demi-riveted and all-riveted construction. I have yet to find a description in medieval inventories distinguishing rivet shape. You've created a category which they didn't seem to care about - demi-riveted with one style of rivet or another.

[Dan Howard]

The two main manufacturing centers were in Southern Germany and Northen Italy and the Italian mail seems to have always used round rivets. Wedge riveting seems to be largely limited to German producers.

Dan, can you post an image or link to an example of Italian round riveted mail?

No. You should already know how difficult it is to get photos of mail that show the back of the links.

[Ernst]

Have you throughly read what both Bergess and Richardson have written on this subject, that is what I am basing my comments on. As for Peters armor, it is "Eastern European" and as we all know Eastern European mail does not always follow the rules of European mail, its like comparing apples to oranges.

Yes. Of course I've read, and re-read them. That is not to say that all their interpretations are always correct, either. We had a decent discussion on this forum regarding Richardson's assertion that tournament mail was butted, for example.

I'm not so comfortable dividing Europe into hard zones, or presuming there is a single set of rules which everyone must follow. Even though Richardson shows a great deal of mail in England was imported from Cologne and the Low Countries, there were still English makers as well. The French sources often refer to mail from Chambly, which must have been of note, though there were undoubtedly mail-makers in Paris. Mail made in Italy was shipped to Spain. Mail from Denmark might easily find it's way to Estonia. Iron and steel were shipped as bulk commodities too. Even though metalurgical analysis of trace minerals in the iron might give us a clue as to the region of its origin, we still have no proof of where it was fabricated. Trade took items far and wide.

[worldantiques]

The two main manufacturing centers were in Southern Germany and Northen Italy and the Italian mail seems to have always used round rivets. Wedge riveting seems to be largely limited to German producers.

Dan, can you post an image or link to an example of Italian round riveted mail?

No. You should already know how difficult it is to get photos of mail that show the back of the links.

Dan, yes I know how hard it is to get photographic proof, do you have any images of the front then of any mail thought to be round riveted Italian mail? Is there any written research that you know of which discusses Italian mail in the context of remaining round riveted and not transitioning to wedgte riveting.

[worldantiques]

The problem being that inventories distinguish between round rings and flat, and demi-riveted and all-riveted construction. I have yet to find a description in medieval inventories distinguishing rivet shape. You've created a category which they didn't seem to care about - demi-riveted with one style of rivet or another.

Ernst, at the very beginning of Thomsons essay he says how the majority of mail was riveted (wedge riveting). The photographic evidence we have in our time shows this as well, how many images of round riveted hauberks do you know of? I have not "created" anything, I am pointing out a obvious fact, there are three main types of European riveted mail, not two as most people seem to think. In all of the forum discussions I can remember the subject of alternating solid and wedge riveted links has not been mentioned (other than when mentioned by me), which seems strange to since they are part of the historical timeline of European mail.

The rivets with which the links are closed are usually wedge-shaped, and fit into wedge-shaped holes punched through the overlapped section of the link from the inside out. The overlapped sections of the links themselves are formed with a swage and hammer with a flat section on the inside of the link and a wave-shaped ‘watershed’ on the outside of the link, so that when the link has been joined to its neighbours and the rivet inserted and hammered closed, with the wide end of the rivet completely flush with the inside of the link, and the pointed end riveted down on the outside, on top of the wave-shaped overlapping section. This in turn means that the mail garment when worn has its smooth side inside, so the rivets do not catch on the padded garments worn underneath. The evidence in the Tower accounts shows that the traditional date of 1400 before which European mail was made of half-riveted, half solid links, needs to be revised to about 1340.

[Ernst]

I'm not trying to be offensive. There's nothing wrong with creating a category based on observable physical differences.

For example, all of us note a category of mail which has a "watershed" at the riveted join. It's a distinct physical form which sets one style of ring apart from others. Erik Schmid believes that category is useful in determining whether a piece is of German manufacture. However, there are no mentions in medieval inventories, or distinctions drawn in historic sources, of mail with a watershed vs. mail without.

That's all I'm trying to point out to you. We can't rely on documents to tell us when wedge riveting was introduced, or when round rivets were phased out (if ever) within Europe.

I think (please correct me if I misunderstand) that you want a timeline for European mail:
Demi-riveted with round rivets > demi-riveted with wedge rivets > all-riveted with wedge rivets

Obviously the temporal edges between those categories are blurry, with some forms co-existing for an indeterminate time. I simply don't know if the evidence supports the view of one form giving way to another, or one of a "stair-step", where new forms join the old ones -- building upon them without totally replacing them.

I gladly concede the demi-riveted construction with wedge-riveting can be categorized, but, like Oakeshott's sword typology, it isn't something they recognized in medieval documents. We can form a category based on physical observations between rings which overlap as a left-hand helix and those which overlap as a right hand helix. That category won't be noted in medieval documents or inventories either. We can form categories for round wire and flattened wire. My question is whether such categories will help us learn about the time or location where a given piece of mail was made, or will they box us into an artificial construct?

[worldantiques]

I think (please correct me if I misunderstand) that you want a timeline for European mail:
Demi-riveted with round rivets > demi-riveted with wedge rivets > all-riveted with wedge rivets

Ernst, I do not "want" anything, I am simply stating the obvious, and what is also stated by both Thom Richardson and E. Martin Burgess, which is that if you tell people that European mail went from round rivets and solid links to wedge rivets and no solid links you would be wrong as you would be leaving out an important step in the development of European mail, its simple, no need to complicate it, the exact dates are not important, maybe some forms of mail continued to be made that do not fit that time line exactly but that does not change the basic facts about the majority of European mail. If "timeline" is a word that causes you a problem then call it phases, instead of two main phases in the development of European mail there are actually three main phases in European mail.

[Sean M]

As far as I can tell from documents and surviving pieces, there were dozens of different kinds of mail in use in 14th century Italy. I don't think that Burgess and Richardson are saying that "rivet shape" and "percentage of riveted links" are the most important variables, they are just two variables which they feel like talking about.

Edit: I don't think that Richardson or Burgess comments on changes in rivet shape either. They just record the shape of the rivets in the individual pieces which they are studying, then move on to give their theories about when mail of all riveted rings began to be made in Europe.

[worldantiques]

As far as I can tell from documents and surviving pieces, there were dozens of different kinds of mail in use in 14th century Italy. I don't think that Burgess and Richardson are saying that "rivet shape" and "percentage of riveted links" are the most important variables, they are just two variables which they feel like talking about.

"Dozens"...there are 12 in a dozen so we are talking about 24 or more kinds of mail in 14th century Italy????

[worldantiques]

Edit: I don't think that Richardson or Burgess comments on changes in rivet shape either. They just record the shape of the rivets in the individual pieces which they are studying, then move on to give their theories about when mail of all riveted rings began to be made in Europe.

Who said anything about Richardson or Burgess commenting on changes of rivet shape, they were explaining that there was a transition from round riveted mail with solid links to wedge riveted mail with solid links, to all wedge riveted mail.

[Ernst]

Edit: I don't think that Richardson or Burgess comments on changes in rivet shape either. They just record the shape of the rivets in the individual pieces which they are studying, then move on to give their theories about when mail of all riveted rings began to be made in Europe.

Who said anything about Richardson or Burgess commenting on changes of rivet shape, they were explaining that there was a transition from round riveted mail with solid links to wedge riveted mail with solid links, to all wedge riveted mail.

How can they explain the "transition from round riveted mail.... to wedge riveted mail" through various phases without commenting on changes of the rivet shape? Richardson states that mail was "usually" wedge riveted, though his work deals primarily with the period 1320-1410 and England.

[Sean M]

As far as I can tell from documents and surviving pieces, there were dozens of different kinds of mail in use in 14th century Italy. I don't think that Burgess and Richardson are saying that "rivet shape" and "percentage of riveted links" are the most important variables, they are just two variables which they feel like talking about.

"Dozens"...there are 12 in a dozen so we are talking about 24 or more kinds of mail in 14th century Italy????

Yes. Italian documents talk about maille bordered in brass/not bordered, half riveted/fully riveted, of iron/steel, decorated in various other ways, of various weights of rings, of various diameters of rings, and with different grades of workmanship and appearance (eg. “not pretty” or “good work”) which is seven variables and a few hundred possible combinations right there. Suriving mail includes pieces woven 6:1 and pieces woven 4:1, and its likely that mail “of Lombardy” or “de Almayne” had some kind of distinctive feature that we do not understand yet. Quite a few of these descriptions appear in English and French documents as well.

I figure that we are in the early stages of studying mail, and most of the people who know the most have never published more than a few brief remarks, so as long as we keep looking and reading and asking questions we will continue to be surprised for decades to come. Edit: Your photo collections on pinterest are helpful but I try to keep humble and keep looking for things which I have not yet seen or have not yet understood, like that unusual Japanese mail which you found.

[Ernst]

I am reminded of the coif from Bulgaria, that Medka posted some years back. IIRC it was all riveted, and probably round rivets. That could use a day or two of detailed study and some metallurgical analysis. All it takes is time and money.

[worldantiques]

Edit: I don't think that Richardson or Burgess comments on changes in rivet shape either. They just record the shape of the rivets in the individual pieces which they are studying, then move on to give their theories about when mail of all riveted rings began to be made in Europe.

Who said anything about Richardson or Burgess commenting on changes of rivet shape, they were explaining that there was a transition from round riveted mail with solid links to wedge riveted mail with solid links, to all wedge riveted mail.

How can they explain the "transition from round riveted mail.... to wedge riveted mail" through various phases without commenting on changes of the rivet shape? Richardson states that mail was "usually" wedge riveted, though his work deals primarily with the period 1320-1410 and England.

As far as I can recall neither Burguess or Richardson comment on why exactly wedge rivets were considered to be superior to round rivets. Has anyone actually presented any proof as to why exactly wedge rivets were considered to be that much better than round rivets. As far as Richardsons work goes, the fact that he was studying the period from 1320 to 1410 and he focuses mainly on wedge riveted mail says something to me.

[worldantiques]

As far as I can tell from documents and surviving pieces, there were dozens of different kinds of mail in use in 14th century Italy. I don't think that Burgess and Richardson are saying that "rivet shape" and "percentage of riveted links" are the most important variables, they are just two variables which they feel like talking about.

"Dozens"...there are 12 in a dozen so we are talking about 24 or more kinds of mail in 14th century Italy????

Yes. Italian documents talk about maille bordered in brass/not bordered, half riveted/fully riveted, of iron/steel, decorated in various other ways, of various weights of rings, of various diameters of rings, and with different grades of workmanship and appearance (eg. “not pretty” or “good work”) which is seven variables and a few hundred possible combinations right there. Suriving mail includes pieces woven 6:1 and pieces woven 4:1, and its likely that mail “of Lombardy” or “de Almayne” had some kind of distinctive feature that we do not understand yet. Quite a few of these descriptions appear in English and French documents as well.

I figure that we are in the early stages of studying mail, and most of the people who know the most have never published more than a few brief remarks, so as long as we keep looking and reading and asking questions we will continue to be surprised for decades to come. Edit: Your photo collections on pinterest are helpful but I try to keep humble and keep looking for things which I have not yet seen or have not yet understood, like that unusual Japanese mail which you found.

Ok, I see that we are talking about two different things, I was focusing on riveting but if you consider all the possible variations then you are right.

The advantage we have when studying mail in our time is that the internet allows us to bring together in one place such a vast amount of images and research but the lack of detailed high resolution images from private colllections and museums is slowing down progress.

[Ernst]

Has anyone actually presented any proof as to why exactly wedge rivets were considered to be that much better than round rivets.

Do we have any evidence that wedge rivets were considered better, or is it simply the "way things are done"? It is a good question though, "Why did they make the change?" We neither have a good understanding of why they moved from demi-riveted construction to all-riveted, nor why they moved from round rivets to wedge.

I don't know that there is any proof of why they made the change. Several suggestions have been put forth online. One suggests that an oblong wedge, unlike a round rivet, cannot act as a hinge for the joint to open around. That is, a thrust might allow the riveted joint to scissor around a round pivot and the ring to distort more. Another notes that some of the examined round rivets have no, or little head on one or both sides, so the wedge rivet might have been less prone to falling out during cleaning and use. Vike's examination of C2616 is interesting because it shows a round rivet in an oblong hole. Perhaps the tooling was making holes for wedge rivets, but the maker only had round wire on hand, and didn't want to go to the trouble of flattening it or cutting strips to make more wedges.

On the subject of Vegard Vike's work, you might want to look at C455, the mail shirt from Verdal, Nord-Trøndelag. It's clearly demi-riveted with wedge construction, so you're likely to assign an earlier date for it than Vike.

[Sean M]

Ok, I see that we are talking about two different things, I was focusing on riveting but if you consider all the possible variations then you are right.

The advantage we have when studying mail in our time is that the internet allows us to bring together in one place such a vast amount of images and research but the lack of detailed high resolution images from private colllections and museums is slowing down progress.

One challenge is that some of these descriptions probably hide details about the riveting which we do not understand yet. Some of the terms for decoration which are hard to interpret refer specifically to the riveting, as does mail “with high riveting,” and it may be that the piercing and riveting was one thing which people looked for when someone told them that a piece was German or Lombard so more valuable. They were writing in a world where maille was part of everyday life, and where people who were interested already knew the lingo.

But if we are willing to learn the languages and patiently collect photos and texts and go back and forth between the texts and the surviving pieces, we can make progress.

[worldantiques]

On the subject of Vegard Vike's work, you might want to look at C455, the mail shirt from Verdal, Nord-Trøndelag. It's clearly demi-riveted with wedge construction, so you're likely to assign an earlier date for it than Vike.

Ernst, I am not stuck on dates that much, there just is not enough reliable information to be absolutely certain, I am more interested in the progression, I should not have used "timeline" as that has different meaning to people.


I know of several examples, how do we date these other than if this particular type of mail died out after all wedge riveted mail took off, on the other hand if both types existed at the same time for longer than is thought there could not be any accurate dating.

Another example,